Ethiopian Airlines: 'No survivors' on crashed Boeing 737 max

[FlyGy]

Apparently Cayman Airways has grounded their 737 max

https://mobile.twitter.com/CaymanAirway ... 0223787008

Their whole fleet?!?!

[lostaviator]

China has grounded the 737 Max fleet in their country. Yahoo mentions there are 60 in use in China.

[telex]

I read the whole fleet of MAX aircraft. Which is two. (in reply to Flygy)

[Daniel Cooper]

China has grounded the 737 Max fleet in their country. Yahoo mentions there are 60 in use in China.

China saw their chance to take a stab at America Inc and took it.

[Eric Janson]

It's strange to me that Boeing didn't include a description of the MCAS system in the FCOM. Why hide it? Perhaps they were afraid of pilots complaining about it and ALPA getting involved to force an override switch.

Nothing strange about it - it's part of the dumbing down of Aviation.

If you compare old manuals to new then you'll see a lot of information has been removed.

The Philosophy is that you are given enough information to operate the aircraft safely and that's it.

The manufacturer wants to sell aircraft in parts of the World where skill levels are at a different level - no point selling an aircraft if the Locals can't pass the training. Just dumb everything down to the point they can pass a check.

You'd be quite shocked at the poor standards in certain parts of the World - accident rates speak for themselves.

[Heliian]

It's strange to me that Boeing didn't include a description of the MCAS system in the FCOM. Why hide it? Perhaps they were afraid of pilots complaining about it and ALPA getting involved to force an override switch.

Nothing strange about it - it's part of the dumbing down of Aviation.

If you compare old manuals to new then you'll see a lot of information has been removed.

The Philosophy is that you are given enough information to operate the aircraft safely and that's it.

The manufacturer wants to sell aircraft in parts of the World where skill levels are at a different level - no point selling an aircraft if the Locals can't pass the training. Just dumb everything down to the point they can pass a check.

You'd be quite shocked at the poor standards in certain parts of the World - accident rates speak for themselves.

I would hope that as technology advances, the need for any type of pilot can be removed, that way you can't blame a human influence. I understand that some countries may not have the high standards we have here in Canada but Ethiopian is a respected airline that is still flying in Canada. The FDR has been recovered, we will see what is behind this crash.

Maybe Boeing has put out an inferior product in trying to keep up with Global demand.

We do know that the aircraft had a technical problem on departure, I'm not going to lay blame just yet.

[phillyfan]

I'm buying Boeing stock this morning. "Buy the Fear" They have orders for 5000 of these things. They are not going anywhere. Shares dropped 12% after the Lion Air crash and bounced back. This is an easy 12 to 15% moneymaker.

[tbaylx]

I'm buying Boeing stock this morning. "Buy the Fear" They have orders for 5000 of these things. They are not going anywhere. Shares dropped 12% after the Lion Air crash and bounced back. This is an easy 12 to 15% moneymaker.

Yup, just did the same. Regardless if it's MCAS related or not, the reasons for a runaway stab don't matter, the procedure is the same. Boeing is still a long term solid buy and it just went on sale this morning

[GRK2]

Wow...pretty cold. How about you don't talk about your awesome business prowess here on this site?

[GGCC]

Lot of talk about grounding the 737 Max type....
I wonder how the crews flying them feel about the aircraft......

[tbaylx]

Wow...pretty cold. How about you don't talk about your awesome business prowess here on this site?

Nothing cold or prowess related about buying into a long term investment. Because they happened to be the manufacturer of the aircraft that crashed has nothing to do with investing in them.

[tbaylx]

Lot of talk about grounding the 737 Max type....
I wonder how the crews flying them feel about the aircraft......

Pretty premature considering no one knows the cause of the Ethiopian crash. There are plenty of carriers worldwide operating the Max safely and reliably.

Lets assume worst case scenario and its a faulty AOA sensor and a mishandled MCAS response. Emergency AD issued changing the FCC software and removing the MCAS trim inputs and the fleet is flying again. Long term it gets fixed with software or addition of a third AOA sensor. The aircraft will continue to be bought and put into service, same as the 787 after the battery issues got fixed.

[digits_]

It's strange to me that Boeing didn't include a description of the MCAS system in the FCOM. Why hide it? Perhaps they were afraid of pilots complaining about it and ALPA getting involved to force an override switch.

Nothing strange about it - it's part of the dumbing down of Aviation.

If you compare old manuals to new then you'll see a lot of information has been removed.

The Philosophy is that you are given enough information to operate the aircraft safely and that's it.

The manufacturer wants to sell aircraft in parts of the World where skill levels are at a different level - no point selling an aircraft if the Locals can't pass the training. Just dumb everything down to the point they can pass a check.

You'd be quite shocked at the poor standards in certain parts of the World - accident rates speak for themselves.

Even Canada and the US. F.. S... has pretty poor training and standards nowadays as well. Pretty sad for an organisation specialised in training

To be fair, it's to be expected though when training is paid for by the customer who also pays for the checkride. There is no incentive for better/harder training, as everyone would just go to the easier tranining at the competitor.

[tsgas]

It's strange to me that Boeing didn't include a description of the MCAS system in the FCOM. Why hide it? Perhaps they were afraid of pilots complaining about it and ALPA getting involved to force an override switch.

Nothing strange about it - it's part of the dumbing down of Aviation.

If you compare old manuals to new then you'll see a lot of information has been removed.

The Philosophy is that you are given enough information to operate the aircraft safely and that's it.

The manufacturer wants to sell aircraft in parts of the World where skill levels are at a different level - no point selling an aircraft if the Locals can't pass the training. Just dumb everything down to the point they can pass a check.

You'd be quite shocked at the poor standards in certain parts of the World - accident rates speak for themselves.

Even Canada and the US. F.. S... has pretty poor training and standards nowadays as well. Pretty sad for an organisation specialised in training

To be fair, it's to be expected though when training is paid for by the customer who also pays for the checkride. There is no incentive for better/harder training, as everyone would just go to the easier tranining at the competitor.

It's all part of the "no child left behind" culture.

[digits_]

It's all part of the "no child left behind" culture.

And the "we have to hire literally everybody who applies because we can't attract anyone else with our current salaries" culture

[GRK2]

Wow...pretty cold. How about you don't talk about your awesome business prowess here on this site?

Nothing cold or prowess related about buying into a long term investment. Because they happened to be the manufacturer of the aircraft that crashed has nothing to do with investing in them.

Let me put it more simple terms there Tbay...this isn't the place for your investment tips...and yes, to tell us all how smart you think you are by posting your stock buying idea on an accident thread is purely chilling. Take it outside buddy, it doesn't belong here.

[CFM Symphony]

Wow...pretty cold. How about you don't talk about your awesome business prowess here on this site?

Nothing cold or prowess related about buying into a long term investment. Because they happened to be the manufacturer of the aircraft that crashed has nothing to do with investing in them.

There is nothing ethically wrong with investing in Boeing after this crash. However given the circumstances, I don't think bragging about it is in good taste. Show some class and tact please.

CFM

[Capt. Underpants]

Lets assume worst case scenario and its a faulty AOA sensor and a mishandled MCAS response. Emergency AD issued changing the FCC software and removing the MCAS trim inputs and the fleet is flying again. Long term it gets fixed with software or addition of a third AOA sensor. The aircraft will continue to be bought and put into service, same as the 787 after the battery issues got fixed.

MCAS was used to certify the flight envelope limitations on the MAX. You don't just "turn it off" and carry on as if nothing happened. Any changes to the system would require re-certification prior to release to the industry.

[Antique Pilot]

In 1985 I spent a few weeks in Ethiopia. I flew on a B-720 from Addis to Asmara Eritrea and back to Addis the next day. I met the crew at their layover hotel and they invited me for dinner. They were all very knowledgeable and professional. The captain had trained on F86’s in the USA in 1960. He also flew T-28’s for the Ethiopian Airforce. Anyways they were all very experienced. Back in Addis I was given a tour of their maintenance base. Again it was first rate, right up there with any major Western airline. I flew to Frankfurt on an ET B767. Flight was on time, service was excellent. I would fly with them anytime.

AP

[Meatservo]

Could someone put this MCAS thing into layperson's terms for us here? I've looked it up and what I have managed to figure out is that it's a modification made to the 737 that compensates for the increased effect that larger and more underslung engines have on longitudinal trim. Is this correct?

I wouldn't normally wish to speculate about accidents before the official reports are out, but the media are already starting to conflate the two recent 737 max-8 accidents and there's been a lot of talk on aviation forums about this MCAS system. How significant is the potential trim excursion from this system if it malfunctions? Is it possible for it to command full nose-up or nose-down trim? Is it impossible for pilots to use the conventional trim wheel to counteract it? I can see an uncommanded trim movement being a bit bewildering in an approach in IMC, but I have more trouble imagining its deadliness in VMC in the daytime, unless this thing is able to command huge trim changes.

I simply don't know enough about this system to understand some of the speculation or imagine how these two events could be related. Please don't jump all over me. I'm just trying to understand some if the ways the computer on a 737 can murder you without recourse to the manual flight controls. I operate a simpler aircraft on which the entire computerized control system including the automatic trim can be completely killed in one move.

[pilotbzh]

Apparently Cayman Airways has grounded their 737 max

https://mobile.twitter.com/CaymanAirway ... 0223787008

All 2 of them....

[ant_321]

Could someone put this MCAS thing into layperson's terms for us here? I've looked it up and what I have managed to figure out is that it's a modification made to the 737 that compensates for the increased effect that larger and more underslung engines have on longitudinal trim. Is this correct?

I wouldn't normally wish to speculate about accidents before the official reports are out, but the media are already starting to conflate the two recent 737 max-8 accidents and there's been a lot of talk on aviation forums about this MCAS system. How significant is the potential trim excursion from this system if it malfunctions? Is it possible for it to command full nose-up or nose-down trim? Is it impossible for pilots to use the conventional trim wheel to counteract it? I can see an uncommanded trim movement being a bit bewildering in an approach in IMC, but I have more trouble imagining its deadliness in VMC in the daytime, unless this thing is able to command huge trim changes.

I simply don't know enough about this system to understand some of the speculation or imagine how these two events could be related. Please don't jump all over me. I'm just trying to understand some if the ways the computer on a 737 can murder you without recourse to the manual flight controls. I operate a simpler aircraft on which the entire computerized control system including the automatic trim can be completely killed in one move.

After I read your post I found this post on social media from a company that makes a manual for pilots on the 737. It does a better job explaining it than I would.

LEAP-1B,
Due to different engine position (more forward) and nacelle shape of the LEAP engines the manoeuvring characteristics of 737 MAX have slightly changed, causing upward pitching moment. It became necessary to install MCAS (Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System) to compensate for this unique handling characteristics as part of the certification process.

MCAS is a function of FCC (Flight Control Computer) and takes Angle of Attack (AOA) data from Left AOA vane

MCAS activates automatically when all of the following conditions are met:
High angle of attack
Autopilot disengaged
Flaps are up

When the MCAS is active it trims nose down for up to 10 seconds.

Trimming nose up while the MCAS is active will pause the automatic MCAS nose down trim for up to 5 seconds. MCAS will restart nose down trim if the activation criteria are still met.

MCAS trims 0.27 units per second - up to 2.5 units in 10 second cycle

Erroneous high AOA data might cause un-commanded nose down trim through MCAS

MCAS can be disabled and automatic nose down trimming stopped by switching the Stabilizer Trim Cutout Switches to Cutout.

Long story short, you end up in a sort of “runaway trim” situation. The memory items for that are the same in every type I’ve flown. Hit the cutout switch and trim manually.

[FADEC]

We don't know what happened yet, but it seems there was a control problem.
Putting the MCAS system in and not putting it in the Flight Manual is ridiculous! Why?
Runaway MCAS should be trained for; repeatedly; can't do that if it is not in the Manual.
Hopefully if there is any indication of MCAS problems in the earliest results from the Flight/Voice Recorders the MAX will be grounded.

Remember that earlier 737's had an issue with rogue rudder actuators going hard over. Boeing denied all the evidence.
Several accidents and incidents were blamed on pilots until one crew managed to land an airplane with the malfunction and Boeing was exposed; forced to re-design the part.
Boeing claimed one of the accidents was a pilot committing suicide when the airplane rolled over and flew into the ground.

Boeing 747 engine mount "Fuse Pins" failed and caused a couple of fatals. Had to be re-designed.

Three 707's had the horizontal stabiliser snap off when landing flap was selected with bad results.

Regarding low time co-pilots. Hopefully that had nothing to do with it.
At one time, AC had lots of just over 250 hour pilots; there were several on my course. There was no problem.
Those pilots were mentored by experienced Captains.
I had the odd F/O with lots of time who was not good on a good day; hours were not the issue.
Lufthansa F/O's go on the line with 250 hours; that hasn't been a problem.
Grads from Sault, Seneca and the like are better trained than many of the low time F/O's that were on the line before those programs started.
Sometimes a higher time pilot has bad habits or attitudes that are a detriment.

[digits_]

MCAS can be disabled and automatic nose down trimming stopped by switching the Stabilizer Trim Cutout Switches to Cutout.

Is that the same button/linked to the autopilot disconnect? Or a switch that's somewhere out of easy reach on another panel? Is that the same switch you would use for a "normal" trim runaway?

Freaky to read that such a system is linked to only one AoA vane? After take-off, if you are flying manually, you raise the flaps, the left AoA is sending a wrong signal and off you go...

I hate to say it, but even the "newer" metros had better protection than that

[ant_321]

MCAS can be disabled and automatic nose down trimming stopped by switching the Stabilizer Trim Cutout Switches to Cutout.

Is that the same button/linked to the autopilot disconnect? Or a switch that's somewhere out of easy reach on another panel? Is that the same switch you would use for a "normal" trim runaway?

Freaky to read that such a system is linked to only one AoA vane? After take-off, if you are flying manually, you raise the flaps, the left AoA is sending a wrong signal and off you go...

I hate to say it, but even the "newer" metros had better protection than that

It’s on the center pedistal. Kind of under the thrust levers. Not exactly the most ideal location but not something you would have to look hard for. It would be difficult to be hand flying a very out of trim airplane and hit them yourself. If the PM wasn’t there to help you relatively quickly things could get interesting.