Ethiopian Airlines: 'No survivors' on crashed Boeing 737 max

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Eric Janson
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines: 'No survivors' on crashed Boeing 737 max

Post by Eric Janson »

A different perspective on the Boeing company...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=706KmH5Fg_Y
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geodoc
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines: 'No survivors' on crashed Boeing 737 max

Post by geodoc »

Here's a grim litany of the government / industry / lobby shop nexus that was likely at the root of the problem:

https://www.seattletimes.com/business/b ... mpaign=ios


.
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av8ts
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines: 'No survivors' on crashed Boeing 737 max

Post by av8ts »

Rockie wrote: Sun Apr 14, 2019 7:38 pm You weren’t there Complex. Don’t destroy what respect I have for you by speculating what you would, or would not have done. I can’t, so you can’t. Exit this discussion.
Wait!! What!! You’ve decided that other people are not allowed to speculate on what they would or would not have done.
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Gino Under
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines: 'No survivors' on crashed Boeing 737 max

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Ki-ll
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines: 'No survivors' on crashed Boeing 737 max

Post by Ki-ll »

geodoc wrote: Mon Apr 15, 2019 11:11 am Here's a grim litany of the government / industry / lobby shop nexus that was likely at the root of the problem:

https://www.seattletimes.com/business/b ... mpaign=ios


.
That’s a good article.
I like how they mentioned airline engineering departments at the end. Are there any true engineering departments left anywhere? Somehow I feel like they’d be one of the first victims of cost cutting.
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lownslow
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines: 'No survivors' on crashed Boeing 737 max

Post by lownslow »

I have a stupid question about manual pitch trim on the 737. Is there really a big-ass cable loop from the trim wheel to the stabilizer jack(S)?
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BMLtech
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines: 'No survivors' on crashed Boeing 737 max

Post by BMLtech »

lownslow wrote: Tue Apr 16, 2019 11:04 am I have a stupid question about manual pitch trim on the 737. Is there really a big-ass cable loop from the trim wheel to the stabilizer jack(S)?
Yes there is, and its about a mile long. Design goes back to the 707 and the 727 was the same.
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lownslow
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines: 'No survivors' on crashed Boeing 737 max

Post by lownslow »

BMLtech wrote: Tue Apr 16, 2019 11:29 am
lownslow wrote: Tue Apr 16, 2019 11:04 am I have a stupid question about manual pitch trim on the 737. Is there really a big-ass cable loop from the trim wheel to the stabilizer jack(S)?
Yes there is, and its about a mile long. Design goes back to the 707 and the 727 was the same.
Thanks. And wow, it's like a colossal Cub.
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Ki-ll
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines: 'No survivors' on crashed Boeing 737 max

Post by Ki-ll »

Here is something interesting I came across the other day. Loosely related to the MCAS and the way Boeing and others build and certify airplanes.
Below are interviews with D. P. Davies, the former chief test pilot of UK CAA, also the author of “Handling The Big Jets”.
In the following clips he talks about the 707 and 747 flying qualities and certification issues, how Boeing, FAA, BOAC and CAA handled those. Quite a listen.
https://soundcloud.com/aerosociety-podc ... iew-comets
1:14:30 - 1:23:00 - Boeing 707 issues with rudder and the way it was handled
1:28:05 - 1:37:45 Boeing 707 issues with pitch up at the stall and how it got certified by FAA and CAA

https://soundcloud.com/aerosociety-podc ... boeing-747
00:00 - 32:42 - on Boeing 747 characteristics and certification in general
10:30 - 12:28 Boeing 747 stall pitch up issue and how it was handled
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Jet Jockey
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines: 'No survivors' on crashed Boeing 737 max

Post by Jet Jockey »

Canada transport minister wants simulator training for 737 MAX fix

ReutersApril 17, 2019
By Allison Lampert

MONTREAL (Reuters) - Canada called on Wednesday for pilots to receive training on simulators for new Boeing 737 MAX software, rather than computer courses, going a step beyond proposals by U.S. regulators and opening the door to disagreement over measures to end a global grounding of the jets after two fatal crashes.

Boeing Co is under pressure to deliver a software update and new training proposals for the MAX to global regulators following a Lion Air crash in October and an Ethiopian crash in March, which killed 346 people combined.

In comments to Reuters, Canadian Transport Minister Marc Garneau said computer-based training, which some pilots had received to transition from older versions of Boeing's 737 to the latest 737 MAX, would not go far enough to satisfy Canada.

"It's not going to be a question of pulling out an iPad and spending an hour on it," he said in Montreal. "Simulators are the very best way, from a training point of view, to go over exactly what could happen in a real way and to react properly to it."

Garneua's comments came after a draft report from a U.S. Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) appointed board recommended additional training without requiring a simulator.

Canada's call for obligatory training time illustrates the challenges faced by the FAA panel, which includes foreign regulators, in securing a common global blueprint for the ungrounding of the 737 MAX.

The FAA declined to comment.

Garneau said the training must include time in a simulator so pilots can rehearse the circumstances of the Lion Air crash in Indonesia last October.

In that crash as well as the Ethiopian Airlines disaster, pilots lost control of the planes soon after taking off. Investigators are focused in part on an anti-stall system called the MCAS, or maneuvering characteristics augmentation system, which can repeatedly push the plane's nose down.

Canada already took measures on pilot training following the Lion Air crash, working with Canadian MAX operators WestJet Airlines, Air Canada and Sunwing to require a five-step memorized pilot checklist for runaway stabilizer.

United Airlines, which owns 14 MAX, said it does not currently plan to add simulator training to its regime, which already requires pilots to memorize steps for runaway stabilizer.

"But obviously, if federal - if the regulatory authorities request that as added training, we will comply with that request," United's Chief Operating Officer Gregory Hart said on a conference call on Wednesday.



(Reporting by Allison Lampert in Montreal; additional reporting by Tracy Rucinski in Chicago and David Shepardosn in Washington; editing by G Crosse and Marguerita Choy)
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RVR6000
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines: 'No survivors' on crashed Boeing 737 max

Post by RVR6000 »

MCAS is not even programmed in the 737 Max sim, the closest thing it can replicate is a stabilizer trim run-away.
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines: 'No survivors' on crashed Boeing 737 max

Post by corethatthermal »

MCAS is not even programmed in the 737 Max sim, the closest thing it can replicate is a stabilizer trim run-away.
Well, Gee ! Then they better program it then !
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tsgas
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines: 'No survivors' on crashed Boeing 737 max

Post by tsgas »

corethatthermal wrote: Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:27 pm
MCAS is not even programmed in the 737 Max sim, the closest thing it can replicate is a stabilizer trim run-away.
Well, Gee ! Then they better program it then !
CAE will be more than glad to fix it , for a price , of course.
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Jet Jockey
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines: 'No survivors' on crashed Boeing 737 max

Post by Jet Jockey »

RVR6000 wrote: Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:05 pm MCAS is not even programmed in the 737 Max sim, the closest thing it can replicate is a stabilizer trim run-away.

Well it is just a software issue and can be fixed! Oh wait Boeing said that but I guess that can be applied to a sim too.

You know what... I hope TC sticks to its guns and demands sim training and I hope other countries follow in TC's foot steps.

Fvck Boeing and the FAA.
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Eric Janson
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines: 'No survivors' on crashed Boeing 737 max

Post by Eric Janson »

Seems there's a real problem at Boeing...

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/20/busi ... e=Homepage
In North Charleston, the pace of production has quickened. Starting this year, Boeing is producing 14 Dreamliners a month, split between North Charleston and Everett, up from the previous 12. At the same time, Boeing said it was eliminating about a hundred quality control positions in North Charleston.
Less Inspectors = less problems found and reported!

Looks like another decision that will come to to bite them hard imho.
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Eric Janson
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines: 'No survivors' on crashed Boeing 737 max

Post by Eric Janson »

https://www.seattletimes.com/business/b ... ne-boeing/
Though Boeing paid $12 million in late 2015 to settle more than a dozen Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) investigations, details of the problems found by the safety agency were not disclosed at the time.

Documents obtained this month by The Seattle Times through a Freedom of Information Act request show the cases revealed a disquieting pattern of falsified paperwork and ignored procedures that created quality issues on the production lines of Boeing and its suppliers.
Makes you wonder what else isn't being disclosed.
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Gino Under
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines: 'No survivors' on crashed Boeing 737 max

Post by Gino Under »

Aircraft manufacturers, including Boeing, from time to time, intentionally mask known issues with their aircraft models going through certification that could cause a narrowing of regulatory focus or cause concern with things that could cause harm, certification delays, or groundings of an aircraft. Take the MAX as an example. This is simply the game that's played.
The need for oversight and involvement of the certification authority is extremely important for this reason alone. They're there to keep OEMs honest and I have no doubt Boeing hid/hides things from regulatory scrutiny that could cost them millions. Well, it has and it will continue to cost Boeing billions and the law suits haven't even begun to be litigated. Never mind the fact that the accident investigations have yet to draw their conclusions.

Gino Under :partyman:
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines: 'No survivors' on crashed Boeing 737 max

Post by pelmet »

Some more interesting info about the 737 and jammed stab procedures throughout its history.

https://theaircurrent.com/aviation-safe ... tigations/

How many -200 drivers out there got sim training(or any training/discussion) for the 'roller coaster' maneuver that is mentioned in old FCTM's?

Not many did, based on the replies 5 days later.

Another interesting note. I checked my old company issued manuals for the type. Nothing mentioned. I have read accident reports before where the aircraft operator did not include pertinent information in their manuals because they thought it was not pertinent.
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines: 'No survivors' on crashed Boeing 737 max

Post by pelmet »

Found this interesting quote on another forum......

"Regarding the trim wheels: When the NG was being introduced, I happened to be the Lead Engineer in charge of them and a whole lot of other stuff. There were some issues. The new display system created a pinch point between the dash and the wheel. We had to make the wheel smaller. And the new trim motor resulted in the wheel, which is directly connected to the stabilizer by a long cable, springing back when electric trim was used. It was an undamped mass on the end of a spring. We had to add a damper.
Result: Depending on the flight conditions, the force to manually trim can be extremely high. We set up a test rig and a very fit female pilot could barely move it."



If this is correct, it sounds like the newer 737's have smaller trim wheels and differences in the trim cable resulting in a higher force required to manually trim. Not sure how aircraft length differences affects this.
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines: 'No survivors' on crashed Boeing 737 max

Post by jakeandelwood »

What a Frankenstein of a plane
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