Twin otter on the ice

[oldtimer]

SherriffPatGarrett, that white, gold and grey with red wings Norseman is MkVI CF-EPZ sitting on the ice in front of Calm Air's water base on Eldon Lake, Lynn Lake Man. January 1971.
How do I know? That is me in the red skidoo suit pre-flighting the bird.

[leftoftrack]

cause the Canadian Military knows more about twin otters then Borek, right AuxBatOn?

[TheRealMcCoy]

cause the Canadian Military knows more about twin otters then Borek, right AuxBatOn?

They sure know how to fly a pretty mean circuit in Yellowknife!

Also, I wanna know what they are being told/their SOP for going to climb power... Because holy crap do they ever pull back on the props fast.

[Antique Pilot]

SherriffPatGarrett, that white, gold and grey with red wings Norseman is MkVI CF-EPZ sitting on the ice in front of Calm Air's water base on Eldon Lake, Lynn Lake Man. January 1971.
How do I know? That is me in the red skidoo suit pre-flighting the bird.

Did you ever fly a Husky in northern MB or SK?

AP

[oldtimer]

AP, Did I fly a Fairchild F11 Husky, sure did. A couple of years in CF-SAQ for Parsons Airways, based in Flin Flon. Great airplane once you get it out of the water but colder than a well diggers ass in the winter. Southwind heater when it worked.

[AuxBatOn]

cause the Canadian Military knows more about twin otters then Borek, right AuxBatOn?

The military can accept some risks that a civilian operators wouldn’t be allowed or wouldn’t want to accept to accomplish a task. Our risk management processes from an airworthiness point of view are very different than TCCA.

It’s not so much “how” we operate the aircraft (which I am sure most companies have more expertise than we do) rather than the conditions in which we can operate the aircraft.

[TheRealMcCoy]

The military can accept some risks that a civilian operators wouldn’t be allowed or wouldn’t want to accept to accomplish a task. Our risk management processes from an airworthiness point of view are very different than TCCA.

It’s not so much “how” we operate the aircraft (which I am sure most companies have more expertise than we do) rather than the conditions in which we can operate the aircraft.

Would you mind elaborating what you mean by this? Want some clarification before I offer a response.

[rigpiggy]

You mean like rescuing people from the south pole in winter, or going out at 16500#, or into a strip with a full load of fuel for the military that brings in a helicopter to check condition for the military otter crew, etc,etc,etc....... sorry but DND doesn't hold a lock on sh!thot aircrews, and some of them that i flew with on their transition to big Red weren't as hot as they believed they were. But hey uni degree, and french they were guaranteed to get in.

[SheriffPatGarrett]

(The military can accept some risks that a civilian operators wouldn’t be allowed )
Of course, as an Otter or Norseman has only one pilot when the An-2 also had a co-pilot, a flight engineer,
a navigator and a loader, plus at least 5 crews waiting at very stops...Dont forget(SERIOUS!)the moskals carry a stove and chimney
to heat the cabin in minus 35 plus another stove for to heat the engine on the ground and(dont forget!) 5 sacks of coal...





So in real life, the An-2 carry the same as a Twin Otter, or the less than the Norseman...Remember, when I flew the C-46, we carried 60 passengers, fuel for all day and stop in 15 villages while The Twotter only carried 600 pounds pallet plus four pax to get anywhere...we had to dump the C-46 because Pierre Trudeau was filling his pockets, millions from De Havilland, passed around twotters like cakes for all the commies friends for Pierre...(Remember Pierre gave 30 Twotters in Indonesia)...who had dumped the lot in the ditches as even if these where given, still could not afford to buy fuel!





WE COULD FLY THE C-46 FAR CHEAPER THAN THE TWIN OTTER,
carry 50 more passengers, faster and fly forever

[SheriffPatGarrett]

that white, gold and grey with red wings Norseman is MkVI CF-EPZ sitting on the ice in front of Calm Air's water base on Eldon Lake, Lynn Lake Man. January 1971.
How do I know? That is me in the red skidoo suit pre-flighting the bird.

So, you are "Canadian Guy"?

ScreenHunter_1379 Jan. 19 00.15.jpg (208.39 KiB) Viewed 1819 times

[TheRealMcCoy]

You mean like rescuing people from the south pole in winter, or going out at 16500#, or into a strip with a full load of fuel for the military that brings in a helicopter to check condition for the military otter crew, etc,etc,etc....... sorry but DND doesn't hold a lock on sh!thot aircrews, and some of them that i flew with on their transition to big Red weren't as hot as they believed they were. But hey uni degree, and french they were guaranteed to get in.

I'm with you. I'm just curious as to the reasoning of what he's getting at, maybe i'll be in for a surprise.

Borek brought them fuel while they were out there doing their shenanigans?

[godsrcrazy]

cause the Canadian Military knows more about twin otters then Borek, right AuxBatOn?

The military can accept some risks that a civilian operators wouldn’t be allowed or wouldn’t want to accept to accomplish a task. Our risk management processes from an airworthiness point of view are very different than TCCA.

It’s not so much “how” we operate the aircraft (which I am sure most companies have more expertise than we do) rather than the conditions in which we can operate the aircraft.

There are a pile of Civilian operators that can do any task the Military does and better with the Twin Otter. Just give them the Canadian Tax payers backing and they would be more than happy to take it on.

[pelmet]

Sounds like a Station 60 to me. The one significant weakness to an otherwise extremely robust bush plane.

Not sure if it was a factor in this case but as others have mentioned, landing on unproven snow or ice in flat light is not without considerable risk. Overcast conditions make recognizing the size and contours of snow drifts incredibly difficult. One mitigating factor would be to conduct a ski drag (dragging the heals of the skis over the surface) to assess the solidity of the terrain, usually followed with a second pass to inspect ones tracks. Sometimes though the contrast is so poor even a ski drag is a risk in itself.

Another factor at play here would be the use of wheel skis. The utility of wheel skis is at the expense of durability. When flying wheel skis it is important to keep in mind that they do not enjoy the flex of the leaf springs on board skis. Wheel skis are more rigid and much heavier than boards. The increased weight coupled with the broader surface area imparts much more force on the poor nose strut. Drifts that board skis would normally cut through or absorb can be quite jarring on wheel skis.

So baby that nose gear, especially on wheel skis. That means proving the ground you're about to touch down on. And on landing keep the nose off the ground until the last.. possible.. moment. Once on the ground it's also a good idea to taxi the full length of your planned take off run. Station 60's also occur on takeoff when pilots (often with a heavy load) run beyond their landing roll into unproven ground.

Sometimes despite all your efforts you break something. Its part of flying in the North.

However, returning to the incident at hand I find it interesting that the CF had to employ a heavy lift heli to recover their aircraft. There just so happens to be a well known DHC6 operator in Inuvik with a brand new hangar and a full complement of engineers with plenty of experience in just this sort of thing. But that's the bureaucracy of the CF for you. I respect our members in uniform but their methods of operating in the Arctic is always slow and cumbersome.

Looks like it happened again....

Original report in French...."C-GNDO, un appareil de type de Havilland DHC-6-300 exploité par Air Inuit, effectuait le vol
AIE641 depuis un camp situé au N55°40.74 / W077°11.17, QC à destination de Kuujjuarapik
(CYGW) QC, avec 2 pilotes à bord. Lors du décollage, un des skis s’est pris dans la neige, la roue
de nez s’est arrachée, et l’appareil est sorti de l’aire de décollage. L’appareil s’est immobilisé en
dehors de la surface préparée pour le décollage. Il n’y a eu aucun blessé. Le nez de l’appareil ainsi
que l’aile gauche, le train d'atterrissage, ainsi que le moteur et l’hélice de gauche ont tous subi des
dommages substantiels.

Google Translate report.....

"C-GNDO, a de Havilland DHC-6-300 aircraft operated by Air Inuit, was flying
AIE641 from a camp at N55 ° 40.74 / W077 ° 11.17, QC to Kuujjuarapik
(CYGW) QC, with 2 pilots on board. During take-off, one of the skis was caught in the snow, the wheel
Nose was torn off, and the aircraft came out of the takeoff area. The aircraft came to a standstill
outside the surface prepared for take-off. There were no injuries. The nose of the device as well
that the left wing, the landing gear, as well as the engine and the left propeller have all undergone
substantial damage."

Some might recognize that registraion....ex-Nordair......
https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1GC ... iAsjP0D07M:

[DashFiveGuy]

I expect we'll see a resumption of slamming of the RCAF in this thread in roughly T-24 hours.

[TheRealMcCoy]

I expect we'll see a resumption of slamming of the RCAF in this thread in roughly T-24 hours.

Hahahahahah. Like the other day when the Twin didn't cancel his IFR 10+ miles out on a severe clear day and made us old short and not take off?

[Donald]

I expect we'll see a resumption of slamming of the RCAF in this thread in roughly T-24 hours.

Hahahahahah. Like the other day when the Twin didn't cancel his IFR 10+ miles out on a severe clear day and made us old short and not take off?

Unable to depart VFR and pick up the clearance later?

[DashFiveGuy]

I expect we'll see a resumption of slamming of the RCAF in this thread in roughly T-24 hours.

Hahahahahah. Like the other day when the Twin didn't cancel his IFR 10+ miles out on a severe clear day and made us old short and not take off?

Not sure how that is relevant to this thread but nope, not even remotely close. T-12 hour’s now (roughly).

[PilotDAR]

made us old short and not take off?

I think it happens to everyone with age....

[DashFiveGuy]

I expect we'll see a resumption of slamming of the RCAF in this thread in roughly T-24 hours.

Okay, well I guess I would have lost that bet.

[pelmet]

Perhaps give us an explanation so we can start the slamming.