The moments before a Learjet crashed outside Teterboro Airport last May.

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SheriffPatGarrett
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The moments before a Learjet crashed outside Teterboro Airport last May.

Post by SheriffPatGarrett »

How do people like this even pass private pilot checkrides?
Mindboggling accident and behavior from both pilots.(Clear day, no wind, no minds)

ScreenHunter_1423 Apr. 01 00.02.jpg
ScreenHunter_1423 Apr. 01 00.02.jpg (63.46 KiB) Viewed 3387 times
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67Yw87l3Atw

NTSBgov
Published on Mar 12, 2019
Crash During Circling Approach to Runway 1 at Teterboro Airport
Teterboro Airport
Teterboro, New Jersey May 15, 2017
CEN17FA183
This two-dimensional animated reconstruction shows the sequence of events in the accident, which occurred on May 15, 2017, about 1529 eastern daylight time, when a Learjet 35A, N452DA, departed controlled flight while on a circling approach to runway 1 at Teterboro Airport, Teterboro, New Jersey.
The sequence of events was reconstructed based on information from radar data, the airplane’s Enhanced Ground Proximity Warning System (EGPWS), the airplane’s cockpit voice recorder (CVR) transcript, Air Traffic Control (ATC) radio communications, and aircraft performance data.
Selected comments from the CVR transcript and ATC communications are displayed as text along with the time they occurred. A sequence of still-image map graphics is used to provide an overview of the circumstances of the accident and the plane’s position as time advanced. Still images are followed by a continuous animation of the accident airplane, beginning from 15:27 to the time of the accident at 15:29. The animation does not depict the weather or visibility conditions. The animation is then followed by a video clip showing the airplane crashing in a parking lot less than one mile southwest of the Teterboro airport. The animation includes audio replay of ATC communications and audio narration.
The animation begins with a picture of the accident aircraft, a Learjet 35A, N452DA. An overall map of the area shows the origin of the flight at Philadelphia International Airport, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, to the destination at Teterboro airport, Teterboro, New Jersey, with a straight-line distance of about 80 nautical miles and a flight time of about 25 minutes. The filed flight plan with a requested altitude of twenty-seven thousand feet for a planned distance of about 120 nautical miles is depicted in white, and the Air Traffic Control cleared route to fly at four-thousand feet is shown in blue. Subsequently, the airplane’s actual ground track is shown at selected times over the course of the flight by a white arrow indicating the airplane’s position and heading, and the magenta line tracing the ground track.
The wide area map view is changed to a more focused map view displaying the four airports in the area: Teterboro Airport, Newark Liberty International Airport, John F. Kennedy International Airport, and LaGuardia Airport. The location of MetLife stadium south of Teterboro Airport and the navigational waypoints VINGS, DANDY and TORBY are also indicated. Ground tracks of previous aircraft flying the same circling approach that was assigned to the accident airplane are presented as white lines to show typical approach paths. Wind direction and speed is indicated. The orientation for the
Instrument Landing System (ILS) localizer for runway 6 is indicated, and the waypoint TORBY is highlighted as the waypoint where airplanes were typically told to begin the circling approach to runway 1.
The map view again changes to an even more focused map view concentrating on the last 2 minutes of the flight as the airplane approached Teterboro Airport. The position of the airplane is depicted in a continuous real time animation. The right side of the screen shows selected statements from the CVR and ATC transcript as text appearing at the time indicated in the transcript. The statements are attributed to the Captain, the SIC (Second-in-Command) and New York approach (APP-NYC) or Teterboro tower (TWR-TEB). The airplane’s airspeed and altitude are indicated at the bottom of the frame, along with the local time.
The animation transitions to a video captured by a security camera showing the airplane as it impacted the ground at a right bank angle of about 125 degrees.
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Re: The moments before a Learjet crashed outside Teterboro Airport last May.

Post by rookiepilot »

That -- animation is a valuable learning tool about the danger in falling behind in a fast airplane in busy airspace. (Never mind the other obviously ugly stuff going on)

Thanks.
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Re: The moments before a Learjet crashed outside Teterboro Airport last May.

Post by trey kule »

Its all about mentoring,,,,the blind leading the blind....

As an aside....
How can somebody watch this video and then post that there was no wind?
Maybe we could learn something from that as well.
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Re: The moments before a Learjet crashed outside Teterboro Airport last May.

Post by SheriffPatGarrett »

OK, it was 16kts...but right in line 01...Not particularly busy at this time, plane was empty and light, the co-pilot repeatedly said
he had no idea how to fly this thing, he was told to get on with it by that guys' own mind was nobody knew where it was!
ImageImage
The crew, apparently uncertain about the approach procedure, didn’t execute the maneuver or ask for clarification from the tower.
Now bearing down on the airport, the plane banked sharply to the right. One controller told investigators the turn was so extreme he could see the aircraft’s entire underbelly. The cockpit voice recorder revealed the expletive-filled final moments as the pilot took the controls back 15 seconds before impact.(He only needed three seconds to get the jet shooting up!)
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Re: The moments before a Learjet crashed outside Teterboro Airport last May.

Post by digits_ »

16G31. I'd say wind was probably a factor in their turn radius. They were overwhelmed so chances are illusions by drift made things worse.
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Re: The moments before a Learjet crashed outside Teterboro Airport last May.

Post by pelmet »

Actually, it is not the falling behind that is the key thing. That will happen to every one of us at some point, whether it is just mentally or physically(eg. ending up high/too fast/not set up/etc). The important thing is what you do about it.

Frequently, it is just a little bit of one of them and things end up working out. Other times it is blatantly obvious as it was in this case. Who the hell is going to start circling a Lear the way they did? Dangerous decision by the captain and all they had to do was simply go around and make another approach.

Same problem would have been encountered even if the winds were calm.
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Re: The moments before a Learjet crashed outside Teterboro Airport last May.

Post by Donald »

Experience levels?
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Re: The moments before a Learjet crashed outside Teterboro Airport last May.

Post by tps8903 »

Donald wrote: Mon Apr 01, 2019 10:58 am Experience levels?
Both Captain and FO had difficulties with training and required remedial training to pass their rides. FO was designated as SIC-0 which means he wasn't allowed to manipulate the controls (but he was in fact the pilot flying until the last few seconds).
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Re: The moments before a Learjet crashed outside Teterboro Airport last May.

Post by SheriffPatGarrett »

The cockpit voice recorder revealed the expletive-filled final moments
Look like the bozos forgot to add power, so, no airspeed and the Lear was turned into a flying brick...
They of course wanted to turn left, the Lear decided to flip the wing right as you see on the pictures!



15:27:50.9 ACGOTH72

one six zero at three thousand. Gotham seven two.

15:27:52.0 HOT-1 (CAPT)
(okay)

15:27:53.4 APP-NYC

Execjet three zero two. radar services terminated. contact Morristown tower (one) one eight point one.
15:27:54.6 CAM
[sound of increased background noise, similar to air drag on landing gear during extension]

15:27:58.1 ACEXEC302

eighteen one for Execjet ***.

15:27:58.7 HOT-1 (CAPTAIN)
'kay. slow to one eighty.

15:28:02.6 CAM
[sound similar to decrease in engine thrust]

15:28:05.2 HOT-1 (CAPTAIN)
'cause I gotta’ get ya flaps twenty.

15:28:06.8 HOT-1 (CAPTAIN)
there ya go.

15:28:06.9 APP-NYC
Gotham eight thirty two turn left heading of one three (zero) * traffic twelve o'clock (Learjet) * circle to runway one.

15:28:08.9 HOT-1 (CAPTAIN)
flaps twenty. gear down. [emphasized]

15:28:10.8 HOT-1(CAPTAIN)
follow the @#$! glideslope [emphasized]

15:28:13.2 HOT-2 (CO-PILOT)
alright you said don't go below one—

15:28:14.3 HOT-1 (CAPTAIN)
yeah don't go below fifteen ‘til I call TORBY.

15:28:15.1 AC-UNK

***.
15:28:17.4 APP-NYC

(delta) alpha contact Teterboro tower nineteen five.
15:28:19.4 RDO-1

nineteen five. four five two delta alpha.


15:28:21.1
HOT-1 (CAPTAIN)
alright.

15:28:21.4 APP-NYC

Hawker zero quebec charlie (reduce to) one eight zero knots.


15:28:22.0 HOT-1 (CAPTAIN)
now you can bring it on down.


15:28:23.8 HOT-2(CO-PILOT)
roger.

15:28:24.2 HOT-1 (CAPTAIN)
bring it on down.

15:28:25.1 ACN900QC

'kay reducing. zero quebec charlie.
15:28:26.7 APP-NYC

Learjet one zero mike bravo reduce speed to one eight zero


15:28:27.1 HOT-1 (CAPTAIN)
seven sixty. [emphasized]

15:28:29.7 HOT-2 (CO-PILOT)
seven sixty roger.

15:28:30.4 TWR-TEB

november four five two delta alpha Teterboro tower.


15:28:32.4 RDO-1

yeah we're up uh for the circling uhhh onnne two delta alpha.
15:28:33.1 CAM
[sound of high pitch tone, similar to altitude alerter]


AIR-GROUND COMMUNICATION CONTENT
15:28:36.2 TWR-TEB

roger Lear four five two delta alpha. wind three six zero at one six gust three two. runway one continue traffic holding in position.
15:28:42.2 RDO-1

four five two delta alpha.
15:28:43.9 HOT-1 (CAPTAIN)
kay do not go below your—

15:28:44.9 TWR-TEB

* winds—


15:28:45.4 HOT-1 (CAPTAIN)
eight hundred.

15:28:45.8 TWR-TEB

** zero one eight gusts to three two.


15:28:46.6 HOT-2 (CO-PILOT)
alright there's eight hundred.

15:28:47.3 TWR-TEB

** cleared for takeoff traffic * half miles final ***.


15:28:48.2 HOT-1 (CAPTAIN)
eight— eight hundred. right there. hold eight hundred.

15:28:49.9 HOT-2 (CO-PILOT)
(yeah) I am.

15:28:50.3 AC-UNK

*** for (one thirty one).

15:28:51.5 HOT-1
watch your airspeed. hand on the fucking throttle.

15:28:51.6 TWR-TEB

** delta alpha *** parking.
15:28:54.5 RDO-1

yeah we're gonna be at Jet Aviation. four five two delta alpha. cleared to land one.

15:28:58.2 HOT-1 (CAPTAIN)
'kay we're gonna circle for runway one.

15:29:00.1 HOT-2 (CO-PILOT)
okay.

15:29:00.7 HOT-1 (CAPTAIN)
so we're kinda on a downwind.

15:29:03.7 HOT-1 (CAPTAIN)
so. go'head.

15:29:04.3 HOT-?
[sound of unintelligible whisper]

15:29:05.1 HOT-1 (CAPTAIN)
break off the autopilot.

15:29:06.1 CAM
[sound similar to autopilot disconnect tone]

15:29:06.8 HOT-2 (CO-PILOT)
there ya go.

15:29:07.1 HOT-1(CAPTAIN)
hand on the fucking—

15:29:07.3 TWR-TEB
(delta alpha) you gonna start that turn? 15:29:09.2 RDO-1
yeah sir we're doin’ it right now four (sixty) delta alpha.

15:29:12.1 HOT-1 (CAPTAIN)
right. 15:29:12.6 CAM

[sound similar to decrease in drag noise]

15:29:13.8 HOT-1 (CAPTAIN)
[sound similar to sigh]

15:29:14.7 HOT-1 (CAPTAIN)

watch the airspeed.

15:29:15.3 HOT-2 (CO-PILOT)
your flight controls. [emphasized]

15:29:16.7 CAM
[sound of faint mechanical whine]

15:29:17.6 CAM
[sound of high pitch tone, similar to altitude alerter]

15:29:18.0 HOT-1 (CAPTAIN)
there we go.

15:29:18.8 EGPWS
five hundred.

15:29:19.8 HOT-1 (CAPTAIN)
disregard.

15:29:21.1 HOT-2 (CO-PILOT)
roger. [strained voice]

15:29:21.6 EGPWS
sink rate. pull up.

15:29:26.2 HOT-2 (CO-PILOT)
meeeh. [strained voice] I'm gonna give ya your controls okay?

15:29:28.5 HOT-1 (CAPTAIN)
alright. my controls.

15:29:29.2 HOT-2 (CO-PILOT)
your flight controls.

15:29:30.3 HOT-1 (CAPTAIN)
@#$! eh. [spoken in angry tone]

15:29:31.5 HOT-1 (CAPTAIN)
watch my airspeed.

15:29:32.7 HOT-2(CO-PILOT)
yup.

15:29:32.8 CAM
[sound similar to high frequency aerodynamic noise]

15:29:33.6 HOT-1 (CAPTAIN)
[heavy breathing]


15:29:34.5 HOT-2 (CO-PILOT)
lookin' good.

15:29:35.5 HOT-2 (CO-PILOT)
V-ref.

15:29:35.6 TWR-TEB

* contact departure one one niner point two.
15:29:35.6 HOT-1 (CAPTAIN)
no.

15:29:38.1 HOT-2 (CO-PILOT)
add airspeed. [emphasized] airspeed. airspeed. airspeed. [exclaimed]

15:29:40.6 HOT-1 (CAPTAIN)
stall. [strained voice]

15:29:41.2 HOT-2 (CO-PILOT)
yup.

15:29:41.6 CAM
[sound similar to high frequency aerodynamic noise]

15:29:42.3 HOT-1 (CAPTAIN)
[sound of strained breathing]

15:29:43.1 HOT-2 (CO-PILOT)
airspeed. airspeed. [exclaimed]

15:29:43.2 HOT-1 (CAPTAIN)
@#$!!!!.

15:29:43.7 EGPWS
sink rate. pull up.

15:29:43.9 RDO-1

ahhh # [yelled] [based on Teterboro Tower air traffic control recording, this utterance was transmitted over the radio]
END OF TRANSCRIPT END OF RECORDING 15:29:44 EST


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Re: The moments before a Learjet crashed outside Teterboro Airport last May.

Post by SheriffPatGarrett »

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Re: The moments before a Learjet crashed outside Teterboro Airport last May.

Post by daedalusx »

Well at least they didn’t kill anyone on the ground.
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Re: The moments before a Learjet crashed outside Teterboro Airport last May.

Post by trey kule »

When I listen to this, the sense I get is the PIC’s actions were consistent with impairment.
I had difficulty downloading the NTSB stuff. Was there any toxilogical reports?
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Re: The moments before a Learjet crashed outside Teterboro Airport last May.

Post by jakeandelwood »

Jeez, they thought right till the end that they could salvage that approach.
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Re: The moments before a Learjet crashed outside Teterboro Airport last May.

Post by GyvAir »

tps8903 wrote: Mon Apr 01, 2019 11:04 amFO was designated as SIC-0 which means he wasn't allowed to manipulate the controls
How does a pilot deemed unfit to fly the plane, even under supervision, qualify as crew on an aircraft with a 2 crew minimum?
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Re: The moments before a Learjet crashed outside Teterboro Airport last May.

Post by iflyforpie »

I’m not sure how they died because they were at least 50 miles behind the aircraft.
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Geez did I say that....? Or just think it....?
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Re: The moments before a Learjet crashed outside Teterboro Airport last May.

Post by SheriffPatGarrett »

99 per cent of airplane crashes, nobody really have an idea what actually happened...however there you got the two spectacular pictures ever!
And all he had is two or three seconds of power to get that light aircraft to shoot up like a rocket...and HE just froze...

15:29:38.1 HOT-2 (CO-PILOT)
add airspeed. [emphasized] airspeed. airspeed. airspeed. [exclaimed]
(They still had time to slam power up!)

15:29:43.1 HOT-2 (CO-PILOT)
airspeed. airspeed. [exclaimed]
(Time? Now too late, boys!)

ahhh # [yelled] [based on Teterboro Tower air traffic control recording, this utterance was transmitted over the radio]
END OF TRANSCRIPT END OF RECORDING 15:29:44 EST

What was left of them and the jet...
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Last edited by SheriffPatGarrett on Thu Apr 04, 2019 10:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The moments before a Learjet crashed outside Teterboro Airport last May.

Post by tps8903 »

GyvAir wrote: Tue Apr 02, 2019 12:43 pm
tps8903 wrote: Mon Apr 01, 2019 11:04 amFO was designated as SIC-0 which means he wasn't allowed to manipulate the controls
How does a pilot deemed unfit to fly the plane, even under supervision, qualify as crew on an aircraft with a 2 crew minimum?
https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/Acc ... AR1902.pdf

1.10.1.8 Trans-Pacific Second-in-Command Policy
At the time of hire, Trans-Pacific SICs were classified SIC-0, which meant that they could
only perform PM duties. To be authorized as PF, an SIC had to first be designated SIC-1 by
management, which would allow the SIC to act as PF with a check airman or management pilot
for evaluation on nonrevenue flights before potential advancement to SIC-2 through -4. The
designations SIC-2 through -4 allowed an SIC to be PF in various scenarios under the supervision
of a line PIC. The following table outlines the guidance provided in the Trans-Pacific GOM
(section 11.3.3, page 11-4) for each of the SIC levels.
Table. Trans-Pacific SIC positions and authorized duties.

Position Authorization
SIC-0 Pilot may only perform SIC duties as PM.
SIC-1 Pilot may act as PF on nonrevenue flights when authorized for observation
by a Trans-Pacific Air Charter check airman or management pilot.
SIC-2 Pilot may act as PF from the right pilot seat on nonrevenue flights.
SIC-3 Pilot may act as PF from the left pilot seat on nonrevenue flights.
SIC-4 Pilot may act as PF on alternating legs from the left pilot seat at the
discretion of the PIC.
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Re: The moments before a Learjet crashed outside Teterboro Airport last May.

Post by tps8903 »

trey kule wrote: Mon Apr 01, 2019 7:57 pm When I listen to this, the sense I get is the PIC’s actions were consistent with impairment.
I had difficulty downloading the NTSB stuff. Was there any toxilogical reports?
Yes,
Captain was negative for alcohol and drugs,
FO was negative for alcohol and impairing drugs. (I would assume they found acetaminophen or ibuprofen or similar, hence the term impairing drugs).
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Re: The moments before a Learjet crashed outside Teterboro Airport last May.

Post by C-GGGQ »

Wow that presentation was terrifying. I understand, especially a new pilot getting behind a fast aircraft like a Lear, but wtf. Why did the captain ignore repeated requests to take over? From a pilot not allowed to fly period?! (That chart of SIC1-4 still doesn't clarify much honestly. Did or didn't he pass a check ride?) ILS 6 circling 1, so fly the ils then make a visual left base for 1. I'm so rusty with IFR but even I fully understood that.
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Re: The moments before a Learjet crashed outside Teterboro Airport last May.

Post by tps8903 »

C-GGGQ wrote: Thu Apr 04, 2019 5:32 am Wow that presentation was terrifying. I understand, especially a new pilot getting behind a fast aircraft like a Lear, but wtf. Why did the captain ignore repeated requests to take over? From a pilot not allowed to fly period?! (That chart of SIC1-4 still doesn't clarify much honestly. Did or didn't he pass a check ride?) ILS 6 circling 1, so fly the ils then make a visual left base for 1. I'm so rusty with IFR but even I fully understood that.
He failed his check ride, then subsequently passed it.

New hires are automatically SIC-0 (PM only) until they are signed off by a management pilot to the next level. SIC-0 can only be PF with a check airman or a management pilot. This captain was neither.
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