King Air at Gillam, MB

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C.W.E.
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Re: King Air at Gillam, MB

Post by C.W.E. »

Dumbing this down to just one mistake of "departed with insufficient fuel" doesn't allow for real examination of the likely many little mistakes before and after the wheels came up that ended with a 200 balled up on a runway in northern Manitoba.
Maybe they could hold public safety sessions to answer questions and better educate us on just what all those
many little mistakes
were and how they missed identifying them before they wrecked their airplane.

That would in my opinion be the professional pilot approach to this issue.
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Illya Kuryakin
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Re: King Air at Gillam, MB

Post by Illya Kuryakin »

C.W.E. wrote: Wed May 08, 2019 6:19 pm
Will they lawyer up?
There is a reasonable chance they may have to.

I know for sure if me or any of my family were a passenger on that airplane they would need a lawyer.
ABSOLUTELY.
If a family member of mine was on board.....I'd OWN that airline.
Illya
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Re: King Air at Gillam, MB

Post by C.W.E. »

Illya K, is this Swiss cheese thing the new age escape language for these screw ups or is it just a touchy feely way to evade responsibility?
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Re: King Air at Gillam, MB

Post by Illya Kuryakin »

C.W.E. wrote: Wed May 08, 2019 6:29 pm Illya K, is this Swiss cheese thing the new age escape language for these screw ups or is it just a touchy feely way to evade responsibility?
Yes my fine feline friend. It's a politically correct term used to hide behind when you can't face the simple inescapable fact that you POOCHED IT !
Illya
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Re: King Air at Gillam, MB

Post by Illya Kuryakin »

The interesting part here is while many accidents are the result of a chain of events, some are just screw ups. In my book, leaving the gear up for landing, or leaving your fuel back at base are YOUR screw ups. It's that simple. No cloak and dagger. No skullduggery. YOU pooched it! What I'm having a hard time with, is the number of you making excuses for these guys. Would YOU want these guys flying members of YOUR family around? Not I.
Illya
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Re: King Air at Gillam, MB

Post by C.W.E. »

And a lot of pilots complain they are not paid enough.

Maybe the bar should be raised to be issued a commercial pilot license to include competency?
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shimmydampner
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Re: King Air at Gillam, MB

Post by shimmydampner »

Illya Kuryakin wrote: Wed May 08, 2019 6:23 pm Shimmy....just between us girls.....professional pilots don't run out of gas. At least, not because they didn't check.
Illya.
Agreed. But as you pointed out, we don't need airplanes crashing all around us to know that. And don't mistake my curiosity for defence of this crew. I haven't heard anyone doing that. But maybe there's some other lessons that could be learned as well. I've had low fuel situations in the past, not as a result of not taking enough fuel. I assume that plenty of others have as well, and some up and coming youngsters will too at some point in their careers. Perhaps there is something to be learned from the decisions this crew did or did not make after they discovered they were light on fuel that might be applicable to someone some day that just might save their bacon.
As an experienced guy, maybe there is no takeaway for you here other than these guys did something stupid. That's fine. I personally am a bit more curious about HOW someone could totally drop the ball on something so elementary and all the other little ways this got so ballsed up.
On another note, when are they letting you out of the home to take me to the Keg and are we bringing . or just his credit card?
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Re: King Air at Gillam, MB

Post by Illya Kuryakin »

shimmydampner wrote: Wed May 08, 2019 6:57 pm
Illya Kuryakin wrote: Wed May 08, 2019 6:23 pm Shimmy....just between us girls.....professional pilots don't run out of gas. At least, not because they didn't check.
Illya.
Agreed. But as you pointed out, we don't need airplanes crashing all around us to know that. And don't mistake my curiosity for defence of this crew. I haven't heard anyone doing that. But maybe there's some other lessons that could be learned as well. I've had low fuel situations in the past, not as a result of not taking enough fuel. I assume that plenty of others have as well, and some up and coming youngsters will too at some point in their careers. Perhaps there is something to be learned from the decisions this crew did or did not make after they discovered they were light on fuel that might be applicable to someone some day that just might save their bacon.
As an experienced guy, maybe there is no takeaway for you here other than these guys did something stupid. That's fine. I personally am a bit more curious about HOW someone could totally drop the ball on something so elementary and all the other little ways this got so ballsed up.
On another note, when are they letting you out of the home to take me to the Keg and are we bringing . or just his credit card?
Only lesson here is, the second you realize you're light on petrol is to suck it up, dial nearest on the GPS, and GO THERE. NOW. Nothing wrong with the "Oh, shite....." Followed with the quick one eighty. Okay, it's embarrassing.....I've been embarrassed. I guarantee . has been embarrassed.
We shall use his card.
Illya.
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Roadrunnersmother
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Re: King Air at Gillam, MB

Post by Roadrunnersmother »

The McGonigal's should be gone from Keewatin with the flight crew. Company culture starts at the top. Their compentacy is lacking for having flight crews this incompetent. Transwest had issues when they were there to.
Stay away from the McGonigal's.
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Ki-ll
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Re: King Air at Gillam, MB

Post by Ki-ll »

Illya Kuryakin wrote: Wed May 08, 2019 6:23 pm professional pilots don't run out of gas. At least, not because they didn't check.
Illya.
Were these not professional pilots?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_ ... Flight_173
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Zaibatsu
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Re: King Air at Gillam, MB

Post by Zaibatsu »

Illya Kuryakin wrote: Wed May 08, 2019 6:40 pm
C.W.E. wrote: Wed May 08, 2019 6:29 pm Illya K, is this Swiss cheese thing the new age escape language for these screw ups or is it just a touchy feely way to evade responsibility?
Yes my fine feline friend. It's a politically correct term used to hide behind when you can't face the simple inescapable fact that you POOCHED IT !
Illya
It’s days like this I wish all old people would just keel over and die.

It’s not a “touchy feely new age” term. It was coined by your generation after yours and previous generations kept crashing planes at rates that would cause an international crisis if they were happening today. You two didn’t crash. Skill, practices that reduce the possibility of the holes lining up and likely not even realizing it, and more than a bit of luck I’m willing to bet.

A Swiss cheese model is one where there are several individual contributing factors to a crash, none of which individually would cause it. Using defence in depth eliminates or greatly reduces these causes, and requires many things to fail in order for an accident to happen.

For example. How many times do you check your gear? Not including what your EGPWS or gear horn or annunciations will tell you?

How many times do you check fuel besides before starting up?

If you’re so good and this Swiss cheese model is a bunch of hogwash, you should only say “once”, since you’re super pilots who will never forget such basic things.
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Re: King Air at Gillam, MB

Post by trey kule »

Would YOU want these guys flying members of YOUR family around?
An excellent question.

And my answer would be the same.
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Re: King Air at Gillam, MB

Post by porcsord »

A side note, if your family was on board, it wouldn't be you sueing the airline, it would be that family member. Maybe they would let you fly their airplanes once they owened the airline. It would be a hell of a world if I could sue McDonalds for making other people Fat.
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goingnowherefast
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Re: King Air at Gillam, MB

Post by goingnowherefast »

Zaibatsu wrote: Wed May 08, 2019 9:03 pm
Illya Kuryakin wrote: Wed May 08, 2019 6:40 pm
C.W.E. wrote: Wed May 08, 2019 6:29 pm Illya K, is this Swiss cheese thing the new age escape language for these screw ups or is it just a touchy feely way to evade responsibility?
Yes my fine feline friend. It's a politically correct term used to hide behind when you can't face the simple inescapable fact that you POOCHED IT !
Illya
It’s days like this I wish all old people would just keel over and die.

It’s not a “touchy feely new age” term. It was coined by your generation after yours and previous generations kept crashing planes at rates that would cause an international crisis if they were happening today. You two didn’t crash. Skill, practices that reduce the possibility of the holes lining up and likely not even realizing it, and more than a bit of luck I’m willing to bet.

A Swiss cheese model is one where there are several individual contributing factors to a crash, none of which individually would cause it. Using defence in depth eliminates or greatly reduces these causes, and requires many things to fail in order for an accident to happen.

For example. How many times do you check your gear? Not including what your EGPWS or gear horn or annunciations will tell you?

How many times do you check fuel besides before starting up?

If you’re so good and this Swiss cheese model is a bunch of hogwash, you should only say “once”, since you’re super pilots who will never forget such basic things.
Don't have to be a safety expert to survive a career. In the old days, there was quite a bit more luck required. Taking of with "the tiniest amount of frost" on the wing of an empty DC3, or flying under a thunderstorm in the middle of the ocean at 50'.

I bet these two old farts have never even heard of the "just culture" concept, but I don't wish them death. Seems counter productive. Safety concepts have progressed quite a ways from "don't @#$! up", and it would be nice if everyone understood that.
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Re: King Air at Gillam, MB

Post by digits_ »

Illya Kuryakin wrote: Wed May 08, 2019 6:48 pm The interesting part here is while many accidents are the result of a chain of events, some are just screw ups. In my book, leaving the gear up for landing, or leaving your fuel back at base are YOUR screw ups. It's that simple. No cloak and dagger. No skullduggery. YOU pooched it! What I'm having a hard time with, is the number of you making excuses for these guys. Would YOU want these guys flying members of YOUR family around? Not I.
Illya
Okay. There are 2 options: the crew either intentionally planned to run out of fuel and crash, or they didn't.
The chance that 2 pilots intentionally planned to crash, seems pretty small to me. So let's go with the option where they didn't try to crash.

Doesn't that make you wonder how this could happen? From a human factors point of view, it could be possibly extremely interesting to figure out what external factors could have affected the decision making process.

We assumed they didn't want to crash, yet they left with insufficient fuel. Why?
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Re: King Air at Gillam, MB

Post by C.W.E. »

It’s days like this I wish all old people would just keel over and die.
Wow.

What kind of person thinks like this?
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Re: King Air at Gillam, MB

Post by North Shore »

Y’know, boys and girls, I think that this thread has just about run its course. We are straying further and further from the how and why of this happening into incivility; insults and hurt feelings are going to follow.
Let’s just wait until the (Interim?)report comes out - there’s got to be more to this than two people jumping into a plane and planning to run out of gas.
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