King Air at Gillam, MB

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Zaibatsu
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Re: King Air at Gillam, MB

Post by Zaibatsu » Wed May 08, 2019 9:03 pm

Illya Kuryakin wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 6:40 pm
C.W.E. wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 6:29 pm
Illya K, is this Swiss cheese thing the new age escape language for these screw ups or is it just a touchy feely way to evade responsibility?
Yes my fine feline friend. It's a politically correct term used to hide behind when you can't face the simple inescapable fact that you POOCHED IT !
Illya
It’s days like this I wish all old people would just keel over and die.

It’s not a “touchy feely new age” term. It was coined by your generation after yours and previous generations kept crashing planes at rates that would cause an international crisis if they were happening today. You two didn’t crash. Skill, practices that reduce the possibility of the holes lining up and likely not even realizing it, and more than a bit of luck I’m willing to bet.

A Swiss cheese model is one where there are several individual contributing factors to a crash, none of which individually would cause it. Using defence in depth eliminates or greatly reduces these causes, and requires many things to fail in order for an accident to happen.

For example. How many times do you check your gear? Not including what your EGPWS or gear horn or annunciations will tell you?

How many times do you check fuel besides before starting up?

If you’re so good and this Swiss cheese model is a bunch of hogwash, you should only say “once”, since you’re super pilots who will never forget such basic things.
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trey kule
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Re: King Air at Gillam, MB

Post by trey kule » Wed May 08, 2019 9:15 pm

Would YOU want these guys flying members of YOUR family around?
An excellent question.

And my answer would be the same.
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porcsord
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Re: King Air at Gillam, MB

Post by porcsord » Wed May 08, 2019 9:43 pm

A side note, if your family was on board, it wouldn't be you sueing the airline, it would be that family member. Maybe they would let you fly their airplanes once they owened the airline. It would be a hell of a world if I could sue McDonalds for making other people Fat.
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goingnowherefast
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Re: King Air at Gillam, MB

Post by goingnowherefast » Thu May 09, 2019 5:34 am

Zaibatsu wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 9:03 pm
Illya Kuryakin wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 6:40 pm
C.W.E. wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 6:29 pm
Illya K, is this Swiss cheese thing the new age escape language for these screw ups or is it just a touchy feely way to evade responsibility?
Yes my fine feline friend. It's a politically correct term used to hide behind when you can't face the simple inescapable fact that you POOCHED IT !
Illya
It’s days like this I wish all old people would just keel over and die.

It’s not a “touchy feely new age” term. It was coined by your generation after yours and previous generations kept crashing planes at rates that would cause an international crisis if they were happening today. You two didn’t crash. Skill, practices that reduce the possibility of the holes lining up and likely not even realizing it, and more than a bit of luck I’m willing to bet.

A Swiss cheese model is one where there are several individual contributing factors to a crash, none of which individually would cause it. Using defence in depth eliminates or greatly reduces these causes, and requires many things to fail in order for an accident to happen.

For example. How many times do you check your gear? Not including what your EGPWS or gear horn or annunciations will tell you?

How many times do you check fuel besides before starting up?

If you’re so good and this Swiss cheese model is a bunch of hogwash, you should only say “once”, since you’re super pilots who will never forget such basic things.
Don't have to be a safety expert to survive a career. In the old days, there was quite a bit more luck required. Taking of with "the tiniest amount of frost" on the wing of an empty DC3, or flying under a thunderstorm in the middle of the ocean at 50'.

I bet these two old farts have never even heard of the "just culture" concept, but I don't wish them death. Seems counter productive. Safety concepts have progressed quite a ways from "don't @#$! up", and it would be nice if everyone understood that.
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digits_
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Re: King Air at Gillam, MB

Post by digits_ » Thu May 09, 2019 7:27 am

Illya Kuryakin wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 6:48 pm
The interesting part here is while many accidents are the result of a chain of events, some are just screw ups. In my book, leaving the gear up for landing, or leaving your fuel back at base are YOUR screw ups. It's that simple. No cloak and dagger. No skullduggery. YOU pooched it! What I'm having a hard time with, is the number of you making excuses for these guys. Would YOU want these guys flying members of YOUR family around? Not I.
Illya
Okay. There are 2 options: the crew either intentionally planned to run out of fuel and crash, or they didn't.
The chance that 2 pilots intentionally planned to crash, seems pretty small to me. So let's go with the option where they didn't try to crash.

Doesn't that make you wonder how this could happen? From a human factors point of view, it could be possibly extremely interesting to figure out what external factors could have affected the decision making process.

We assumed they didn't want to crash, yet they left with insufficient fuel. Why?
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C.W.E.
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Re: King Air at Gillam, MB

Post by C.W.E. » Thu May 09, 2019 7:29 am

It’s days like this I wish all old people would just keel over and die.
Wow.

What kind of person thinks like this?
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North Shore
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Re: King Air at Gillam, MB

Post by North Shore » Thu May 09, 2019 8:42 am

Y’know, boys and girls, I think that this thread has just about run its course. We are straying further and further from the how and why of this happening into incivility; insults and hurt feelings are going to follow.
Let’s just wait until the (Interim?)report comes out - there’s got to be more to this than two people jumping into a plane and planning to run out of gas.
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