King Air at Gillam, MB

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FlyGy
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Re: King Air at Gillam, MB

Post by FlyGy » Wed May 01, 2019 2:16 pm

I'm not familiar with the B200 fuel system. Do the starboard tanks feed the starboard engine and the port tanks the port side engine with the ability to transfer fuel from one wing to the other?

I'm just trying to wrap my head around where the leak may have occurred to kill both engines.
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Last edited by FlyGy on Wed May 01, 2019 4:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: King Air at Gillam, MB

Post by telex » Wed May 01, 2019 2:33 pm

FUEL CROSSFEED SYSTEM
Crossfeeding is conducted only during single-
engine operation, when it may be necessary
to supply fuel to the operative engine
from the fuel system on the opposite side
(Figure 5-9). The simplified crossfeed control
positions are labeled CROSSFEED
FLOW and OFF (Figure 5-5). The STANDBY
PUMP switches must be positioned to OFF
for crossfeeding.

Image
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Re: King Air at Gillam, MB

Post by FlyGy » Wed May 01, 2019 4:19 pm

Okay, so the engines normally run off the tanks in that wing and transferring fuel from one wing to the other is only done in the event of a shutdown?

It also looks like it's a complex enough procedure that involves too many steps for an unintentional draining of the fuel tanks, so is there a location in the fuel system that both wings would be able to drain from without the knowledge of the flight crew or without the accidental flip of a switch?
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Re: King Air at Gillam, MB

Post by pelmet » Wed May 01, 2019 7:14 pm

It will be interesting to learn more about the reported fuel leak. An important additional piece of info.
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Re: King Air at Gillam, MB

Post by corethatthermal » Thu May 02, 2019 8:02 am

Do tell me; how the hell is a flight crew supposed to know how thick the ice is on the lakes below? Don't remember seeing surrounding lake ice thickness on METAR reports.
Any good pilot flying into the north will have some idea of the ice thickness and its suitability for a precautionary or emergency landing otherwise, I would consider them useless twits trained in college in some big city like Toronto and practically useless for the north ! :)
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Re: King Air at Gillam, MB

Post by corethatthermal » Thu May 02, 2019 8:05 am

Do college trained pilots ever look out the window or do their homework and familiarize themselves with enroute airports, even old/abandoned ones that are still functional?
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Re: King Air at Gillam, MB

Post by digits_ » Thu May 02, 2019 8:33 am

corethatthermal wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 8:02 am
Do tell me; how the hell is a flight crew supposed to know how thick the ice is on the lakes below? Don't remember seeing surrounding lake ice thickness on METAR reports.
Any good pilot flying into the north will have some idea of the ice thickness and its suitability for a precautionary or emergency landing otherwise, I would consider them useless twits trained in college in some big city like Toronto and practically useless for the north ! :)
Does anyone here think they intentionally landed on the ice? What were they supposed to do on short final, go around with no engines because the ice might be too thin?
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Re: King Air at Gillam, MB

Post by Illya Kuryakin » Thu May 02, 2019 8:43 am

Hello centre.....we have a fuel leak......CLASSIC ass cover.
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Re: King Air at Gillam, MB

Post by Crsaviation » Thu May 02, 2019 12:14 pm

corethatthermal wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 8:02 am
Do tell me; how the hell is a flight crew supposed to know how thick the ice is on the lakes below? Don't remember seeing surrounding lake ice thickness on METAR reports.
Any good pilot flying into the north will have some idea of the ice thickness and its suitability for a precautionary or emergency landing otherwise, I would consider them useless twits trained in college in some big city like Toronto and practically useless for the north ! :)
I can tell you have been flying for years and are clearly a seasoned northern pilot. By all the speculation here, obviously you all should be working for the TSB. Hell, the official report would already be out with all this talent posting on this. You don't know a god damn thing. Clueless. Absolutely idiotic the things in seeing posted and the name calling. So disrespectful. Put yourself in the crews shoes and them seeing this. But you won't. Your all invincible pilots who know everything and nothing bad will ever happen to you. Get a life.
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Re: King Air at Gillam, MB

Post by flyingnorm » Thu May 02, 2019 12:22 pm

Because no King Air has ever had a fuel leak. And no King Air has ever had faulty gauges. And no King Air has ever had mismanaged fuel loading. And certainly no King Air has had a cap left off. Neither has any King Air ever been captained by a pilot that made fuel miscalculations. Also, no King Air has ever been dead sticked to an airport with the crew walking avay.

Now which of these has this crew experienced for the first time since mankind took to the skies?

One thing for sure, all satire asside, seldom have any pilots taken to the skies planning to run out of fuel in Gillam MB. Its just a bad form to plan that into your day. Surely if the captain had briefed the flight with this in the plan, any neophyte SIC would have asked some questions.
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Re: King Air at Gillam, MB

Post by C.W.E. » Thu May 02, 2019 2:22 pm

Hello centre.....we have a fuel leak......CLASSIC ass cover.
If nothing else it is a way to let everyone forget the issue because it can take up to a couple of years for the TSB to release the findings.
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Re: King Air at Gillam, MB

Post by C.W.E. » Thu May 02, 2019 2:25 pm

Do tell me; how the hell is a flight crew supposed to know how thick the ice is on the lakes below?
That depends on the pilot.
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Re: King Air at Gillam, MB

Post by daedalusx » Thu May 02, 2019 3:07 pm

C.W.E. wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 2:22 pm
Hello centre.....we have a fuel leak......CLASSIC ass cover.
If nothing else it is a way to let everyone forget the issue because it can take up to a couple of years for the TSB to release the findings.
I actually had a small fuel leak in between YZF and YCB in a Kingair couple of years ago. Luckily we caught it and came back to YZF. It can happen and there isn’t a whole lot of suitable landing facilities unlike down south.
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Re: King Air at Gillam, MB

Post by corethatthermal » Thu May 02, 2019 10:02 pm

That depends on the pilot.
As i am sure CWE would agree, Any seasoned northern pilot will have an internal "almanac" revised with yearly weather conditions with respect to ice in and ice out in local areas AND will also instinctively know the basic depth and condition of ice by its colour, reflection, shoreline effect and many other variables. You do not need to be a skiplane pilot to get to know the conditions of your alternate airstrip ( the lake in winter) and i am sure any one of your passengers will be comforted to know, if they came up front to ask the capitan if the ice on the lake was safe to land on and you were able to provide a fairly certain yes or no!... WHERE has common sense gone these days? As for flaming the pilot(s) like Kuryakin alluded to, A pilot who MAY have done a stupid or negligent thing will be the same pilot who tries everything in the book of fools to cover it up or lie to get away with it! Where is the honour, where is the integrity?
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Re: King Air at Gillam, MB

Post by corethatthermal » Thu May 02, 2019 10:05 pm

god damn thing. Clueless. Absolutely idiotic the things in seeing posted and the name calling. So disrespectful. Put yourself in the crews shoes and them seeing this. But you won't. Your all invincible pilots who know everything and nothing bad will ever happen to you. Get a life.[/quote]

Hmmm, Just WHO is calling the kettle black ? :lol:
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Re: King Air at Gillam, MB

Post by Arnie Pye » Thu May 02, 2019 10:47 pm

corethatthermal wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 8:02 am
Do tell me; how the hell is a flight crew supposed to know how thick the ice is on the lakes below? Don't remember seeing surrounding lake ice thickness on METAR reports.
Any good pilot flying into the north will have some idea of the ice thickness and its suitability for a precautionary or emergency landing otherwise, I would consider them useless twits trained in college in some big city like Toronto and practically useless for the north ! :)
Really? You have to be kidding. What is the formula for determining the ice thickness required to support an aircraft? It isn't a formula that is taught in ground school as far as I recall. I have a few thousand hours of ice strip experience and I remember it but I don't recall being told what it was until I started this type of work - which by the way was only after a few thousand hours of other flying. I wouldn't expect anyone without ice strip flying experience to know how to determine how many inches/thousand pounds of load, nor would I expect that any non-ice strip pilot to really know what to look for when selecting a landing site. There are more variables than is the ice thick enough to support the dead weight of the hull. I wouldn't have gone around picking landing sites and randomly trying to land on a lake even with both engines running, let alone under the pressure of a dual engine failure. Ice strip work isn't an entry level job and the skills required aren't learned until you start doing that type of work.
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Re: King Air at Gillam, MB

Post by pelmet » Fri May 03, 2019 4:52 am

corethatthermal wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 10:02 pm
That depends on the pilot.
As i am sure CWE would agree, Any seasoned northern pilot will have an internal "almanac" revised with yearly weather conditions with respect to ice in and ice out in local areas AND will also instinctively know the basic depth and condition of ice by its colour, reflection, shoreline effect and many other variables. You do not need to be a skiplane pilot to get to know the conditions of your alternate airstrip ( the lake in winter) and i am sure any one of your passengers will be comforted to know, if they came up front to ask the capitan if the ice on the lake was safe to land on and you were able to provide a fairly certain yes or no!... WHERE has common sense gone these days?
:roll:

Maybe during the obvious months in the obvious areas.
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Re: King Air at Gillam, MB

Post by mbav8r » Fri May 03, 2019 7:58 am

Illya Kuryakin wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 8:43 am
Hello centre.....we have a fuel leak......CLASSIC ass cover.
So, on the Air Tindi accident thread, you were completely wrong, you vilified a crew without so much as a thread of evidence, here you are again. You’re a real piece of.... work!
You have no evidence they lied, none, nada, zip! Perhaps you’re projecting your own shortcomings onto other pilots.
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Re: King Air at Gillam, MB

Post by trey kule » Fri May 03, 2019 8:04 am

Corethat thermal...
Are you a troll or a teenager in his parents’ basement?

Your comments and conclusions about judging ice suitability from internal Almanacs and what not, are ludicrous.

Maybe you are attempting to deflect the topic away from the obviousfact that a crew landed an aircraft with, not ine, but two dead engines.

Ihave noidea ofyour intent, but be assured we are laughing at you, not withyou.
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Re: King Air at Gillam, MB

Post by digits_ » Fri May 03, 2019 8:59 am

corethatthermal wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 10:02 pm
That depends on the pilot.
As i am sure CWE would agree, Any seasoned northern pilot will have an internal "almanac" revised with yearly weather conditions with respect to ice in and ice out in local areas AND will also instinctively know the basic depth and condition of ice by its colour, reflection, shoreline effect and many other variables. You do not need to be a skiplane pilot to get to know the conditions of your alternate airstrip ( the lake in winter) and i am sure any one of your passengers will be comforted to know, if they came up front to ask the capitan if the ice on the lake was safe to land on and you were able to provide a fairly certain yes or no!... WHERE has common sense gone these days? As for flaming the pilot(s) like Kuryakin alluded to, A pilot who MAY have done a stupid or negligent thing will be the same pilot who tries everything in the book of fools to cover it up or lie to get away with it! Where is the honour, where is the integrity?
1) What is the relevance of knowing how thick the ice is? It's a twin turbine airplane. No twin turbine airplane redirects its route to be withing gliding distance of a suitable landing spot. Who cares how thick the ice is. I'd speculate they were trying to make Gillam, not make a nice landing on the frozen lake.

2) It is a lack of integrity to accuse pilots of flying without fuel and/or covering up said mistake without any proof. Speculate all you want, but if you start accusing pilots based on your personal suspicion or rumours, you are going too far.
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Re: King Air at Gillam, MB

Post by Crsaviation » Fri May 03, 2019 10:33 am

Kids these days eh. Probably have a couple hundred hours each, so they know it all. I'm willing to bet that if what happened to this crew happened to half of the people posting on this, the outcome would be quite different. Major koodos to the captain for getting everyone down in 1 piece. He should be considered a hero. Because of him/her, everyone walked away unhurt, and by the looks of it, most of the airplane is salvageable.
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Re: King Air at Gillam, MB

Post by North Shore » Fri May 03, 2019 12:06 pm

digits_ wrote:
Fri May 03, 2019 8:59 am
corethatthermal wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 10:02 pm
That depends on the pilot.
As i am sure CWE would agree, Any seasoned northern pilot will have an internal "almanac" revised with yearly weather conditions with respect to ice in and ice out in local areas AND will also instinctively know the basic depth and condition of ice by its colour, reflection, shoreline effect and many other variables. You do not need to be a skiplane pilot to get to know the conditions of your alternate airstrip ( the lake in winter) and i am sure any one of your passengers will be comforted to know, if they came up front to ask the capitan if the ice on the lake was safe to land on and you were able to provide a fairly certain yes or no!... WHERE has common sense gone these days? As for flaming the pilot(s) like Kuryakin alluded to, A pilot who MAY have done a stupid or negligent thing will be the same pilot who tries everything in the book of fools to cover it up or lie to get away with it! Where is the honour, where is the integrity?
1) What is the relevance of knowing how thick the ice is? It's a twin turbine airplane. No twin turbine airplane redirects its route to be withing gliding distance of a suitable landing spot. Who cares how thick the ice is. I'd speculate they were trying to make Gillam, not make a nice landing on the frozen lake.

2) It is a lack of integrity to accuse pilots of flying without fuel and/or covering up said mistake without any proof. Speculate all you want, but if you start accusing pilots based on your personal suspicion or rumours, you are going too far.
Digits, old chap, I think that you're being trolled...
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Re: King Air at Gillam, MB

Post by corethatthermal » Sat May 04, 2019 6:57 pm

1) What is the relevance of knowing how thick the ice is? It's a twin turbine airplane. No twin turbine airplane redirects its route to be withing gliding distance of a suitable landing spot. Who cares how thick the ice is. I'd speculate they were trying to make Gillam, not make a nice landing on the frozen lake.
What IF they flamed out 2 minutes earlier ? Where would they be? low and slow and into the trees with injuries and deaths OR onto a suitable lake surface with no injuries AND an undamaged A/C with a 2-4 hour delay in ops. There is a shitload of RELEVANCE in knowing your surroundings and your options! A Good pilot often has an ace up the sleeve and its sometimes called a sure and safe option. Your answer above shows ignorance on all counts! Even a seasoned bush pilot may come up short in utilizing all the best tools in the shed to get the job done!
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Re: King Air at Gillam, MB

Post by telex » Sat May 04, 2019 7:41 pm

corethatthermal wrote:
Sat May 04, 2019 6:57 pm
1) What is the relevance of knowing how thick the ice is? It's a twin turbine airplane. No twin turbine airplane redirects its route to be withing gliding distance of a suitable landing spot. Who cares how thick the ice is. I'd speculate they were trying to make Gillam, not make a nice landing on the frozen lake.
What IF they flamed out 2 minutes earlier ? Where would they be? low and slow and into the trees with injuries and deaths OR onto a suitable lake surface with no injuries AND an undamaged A/C with a 2-4 hour delay in ops. There is a shitload of RELEVANCE in knowing your surroundings and your options! A Good pilot often has an ace up the sleeve and its sometimes called a sure and safe option. Your answer above shows ignorance on all counts! Even a seasoned bush pilot may come up short in utilizing all the best tools in the shed to get the job done!
It's going to go back to why two turbines flamed out at the same time. It won't be a matter of "what if" two minutes earlier. It will be a matter of two hours earlier as to why they flamed out.
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Re: King Air at Gillam, MB

Post by shimmydampner » Sat May 04, 2019 8:49 pm

corethatthermal wrote:
Sat May 04, 2019 6:57 pm
all the best tools in the shed
The thread certainly is bringing all the tools out of the shed.
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