Reverser Light Leads to Engine Shutdown

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pelmet
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Reverser Light Leads to Engine Shutdown

Post by pelmet »

Interesting event. I suppose the -900's and -200's have different types of thrust reverser......

"C-FEJA, a Bombardier CL-600-2B19 CRJ200 aircraft operated by Jazz Aviation LP, was
conducting flight JZA8856 from Ottawa/MacDonald-Cartier Intl (CYOW), ON to Newark/Liberty Intl
(KEWR), NJ with 4 crew members and 28 passengers on board. During the descent into KEWR,
the flight crew received a right thrust reverser unlocked icon. The flight crew immediately shut the
associated engine down, however realized upon executing the Quick Reference Handbook (QRH)
items that the engine shutdown procedure was for the 900 series, not the 200 series. The number
2 engine was restarted, and the aircraft landed at KEWR without further incident.
The operator’s maintenance performed a thrust reverser lock out, and the aircraft was returned to
service."
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Last edited by pelmet on Sun May 26, 2019 7:35 am, edited 4 times in total.
Victory
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Re: Reverser Light leads to Engine Shutdown

Post by Victory »

Why didn't you title this "Always check the model number painted on the side when you get in"
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goingnowherefast
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Re: Reverser Light leads to Engine Shutdown

Post by goingnowherefast »

Maybe the types aren't quite similar enough. Dash classic and Q400 are technically one type rating, but aren't operated that way.
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Heliian
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Re: Reverser Light leads to Engine Shutdown

Post by Heliian »

The pilots did the right thing in shutting the engine down.

You don't want to waste time when presented with a bad reverser.

They then ran the qrh, which directed them to the correct procedure for that aircraft and they continued as they should.

Hardly even worth mentioning really.
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av8ts
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Re: Reverser Light leads to Engine Shutdown

Post by av8ts »

Heliian wrote: Thu May 23, 2019 8:04 am The pilots did the right thing in shutting the engine down.

You don't want to waste time when presented with a bad reverser.

They then ran the qrh, which directed them to the correct procedure for that aircraft and they continued as they should.

Hardly even worth mentioning really.
What!! They were confused about their memory items and wrongly shut down an engine and your saying that was the right thing to do??
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pelmet
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Re: Reverser Light leads to Engine Shutdown

Post by pelmet »

Victory wrote: Thu May 23, 2019 4:32 am Why didn't you title this "Always check the model number painted on the side when you get in"
Personally, I am mostly just curious for more information on this incident and hopefully we can all learn more from it. Which is why I started the thread.

But Victory wanted me to re-name of this thread. So I have changed the thread title from 'Reverser Light Leads to Engine Shutdown' to his recommended new title. However, it looks like the original title still stays for the replies. Sorry Victory,

Thanks for the valuable input, anyways. Updated: I guess it wasn’t valuable at all(as I always suspected) and went back to the original title.
goingnowherefast wrote: Thu May 23, 2019 4:34 am Maybe the types aren't quite similar enough. Dash classic and Q400 are technically one type rating, but aren't operated that way.
We seem to see a lot of this sort of thing these days with the 737 getting much attention these days.
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Last edited by pelmet on Sun May 26, 2019 8:24 am, edited 3 times in total.
Heliian
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Re: Always check the model number painted on the side when getting in

Post by Heliian »

av8ts wrote: Thu May 23, 2019 10:04 am
Heliian wrote: Thu May 23, 2019 8:04 am The pilots did the right thing in shutting the engine down.

You don't want to waste time when presented with a bad reverser.

They then ran the qrh, which directed them to the correct procedure for that aircraft and they continued as they should.

Hardly even worth mentioning really.
What!! They were confused about their memory items and wrongly shut down an engine and your saying that was the right thing to do??
Do you know what can happen in some aircraft if the reverser goes off in flight?
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fish4life
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Re: Always check the model number painted on the side when getting in

Post by fish4life »

Does jazz not use a QRC for shutdowns?
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Tail-Chaser
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Re: Always check the model number painted on the side when getting in

Post by Tail-Chaser »

fish4life wrote: Thu May 23, 2019 10:35 am Does jazz not use a QRC for shutdowns?
They do. There are basically no more memory items. They would've pulled up the QRC then moved on to the longer QRH. The difference between the 200 and 900 is that the 200 has a system to more or less restow the reverser if it comes unlocked IRCC. The 900 doesn't.
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pelmet
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Re: Always check the model number painted on the side when getting in

Post by pelmet »

Tail-Chaser wrote: Sun May 26, 2019 7:13 am
fish4life wrote: Thu May 23, 2019 10:35 am Does jazz not use a QRC for shutdowns?
They do. There are basically no more memory items. They would've pulled up the QRC then moved on to the longer QRH. The difference between the 200 and 900 is that the 200 has a system to more or less restow the reverser if it comes unlocked IRCC. The 900 doesn't.
Thanks, that was the information I was interested in. I suppose the earlier request for a title change makes no sense at all.
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GoinVertical
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Re: Reverser Light Leads to Engine Shutdown

Post by GoinVertical »

Forgetting the QRC for the moment, one would think that aircraft with a common type rating would have common memory items.

Even between Classic Dash and Q400 the memory items are essentially identical.
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telex
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Re: Always check the model number painted on the side when getting in

Post by telex »

Heliian wrote: Thu May 23, 2019 10:34 am
av8ts wrote: Thu May 23, 2019 10:04 am
Heliian wrote: Thu May 23, 2019 8:04 am The pilots did the right thing in shutting the engine down.

You don't want to waste time when presented with a bad reverser.

They then ran the qrh, which directed them to the correct procedure for that aircraft and they continued as they should.

Hardly even worth mentioning really.
What!! They were confused about their memory items and wrongly shut down an engine and your saying that was the right thing to do??
Do you know what can happen in some aircraft if the reverser goes off in flight?
Most pilots are probably aware of the consequences of a reverser deploying in-flight.

Your position is that the crew did the right thing by shutting down an engine on an airplane that does not require an engine shutdown for a reverser unlocked light?

Please explain.
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Heliian
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Re: Always check the model number painted on the side when getting in

Post by Heliian »

telex wrote: Sun May 26, 2019 10:39 am
Heliian wrote: Thu May 23, 2019 10:34 am
av8ts wrote: Thu May 23, 2019 10:04 am

What!! They were confused about their memory items and wrongly shut down an engine and your saying that was the right thing to do??
Do you know what can happen in some aircraft if the reverser goes off in flight?
Most pilots are probably aware of the consequences of a reverser deploying in-flight.

Your position is that the crew did the right thing by shutting down an engine on an airplane that does not require an engine shutdown for a reverser unlocked light?

Please explain.
Why don't you ask the crew involved. It was their heat of the moment decision. They did the right thing by taking action. Not that their actions were correct.
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telex
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Re: Always check the model number painted on the side when getting in

Post by telex »

Heliian wrote: Sun May 26, 2019 7:41 pm
telex wrote: Sun May 26, 2019 10:39 am
Heliian wrote: Thu May 23, 2019 10:34 am

Do you know what can happen in some aircraft if the reverser goes off in flight?
Most pilots are probably aware of the consequences of a reverser deploying in-flight.

Your position is that the crew did the right thing by shutting down an engine on an airplane that does not require an engine shutdown for a reverser unlocked light?

Please explain.
Why don't you ask the crew involved. It was their heat of the moment decision. They did the right thing by taking action. Not that their actions were correct.
Now I'm more confused. They did the right thing by taking the wrong action?

Your statement was they did the right thing.

Then they went to the QRH and did the correct thing.

Do you want to quantify your statements or just play silly bugger?

Until the crew pops up and explains the situation I'll just continue my discussion with you. Unless you want to quit digging?
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Last edited by telex on Sun May 26, 2019 9:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Always check the model number painted on the side when getting in

Post by fish4life »

Tail-Chaser wrote: Sun May 26, 2019 7:13 am
fish4life wrote: Thu May 23, 2019 10:35 am Does jazz not use a QRC for shutdowns?
They do. There are basically no more memory items. They would've pulled up the QRC then moved on to the longer QRH. The difference between the 200 and 900 is that the 200 has a system to more or less restow the reverser if it comes unlocked IRCC. The 900 doesn't.
Just because i don’t know is the QRC the same for both types?
I find it weird a QRC would have you shut it down only to have the model specific QRH let you start it back up or is there. Procedure to be done while it’s shut down that allows you to start the engine back up?
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Re: Always check the model number painted on the side when getting in

Post by Tail-Chaser »

fish4life wrote: Sun May 26, 2019 9:22 pm
Tail-Chaser wrote: Sun May 26, 2019 7:13 am
fish4life wrote: Thu May 23, 2019 10:35 am Does jazz not use a QRC for shutdowns?
They do. There are basically no more memory items. They would've pulled up the QRC then moved on to the longer QRH. The difference between the 200 and 900 is that the 200 has a system to more or less restow the reverser if it comes unlocked IRCC. The 900 doesn't.
Just because i don’t know is the QRC the same for both types?
I find it weird a QRC would have you shut it down only to have the model specific QRH let you start it back up or is there. Procedure to be done while it’s shut down that allows you to start the engine back up?
It's been a little while since I flew them but the QRCs were unique to the type. I wish I still had access to the documents to double check.

The procedure for the 200 was pretty basic. I think the thrust lever automatically retarded to idle or needed to be idled, the EMER STOW button illuminated, you hit the button, and ideally you've got a stowed reverser.
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telex
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Re: Always check the model number painted on the side when getting in

Post by telex »

Tail-Chaser wrote: Sun May 26, 2019 9:43 pm
fish4life wrote: Sun May 26, 2019 9:22 pm
Tail-Chaser wrote: Sun May 26, 2019 7:13 am

They do. There are basically no more memory items. They would've pulled up the QRC then moved on to the longer QRH. The difference between the 200 and 900 is that the 200 has a system to more or less restow the reverser if it comes unlocked IRCC. The 900 doesn't.
Just because i don’t know is the QRC the same for both types?
I find it weird a QRC would have you shut it down only to have the model specific QRH let you start it back up or is there. Procedure to be done while it’s shut down that allows you to start the engine back up?
It's been a little while since I flew them but the QRCs were unique to the type. I wish I still had access to the documents to double check.

The procedure for the 200 was pretty basic. I think the thrust lever automatically retarded to idle or needed to be idled, the EMER STOW button illuminated, you hit the button, and ideally you've got a stowed reverser.
So don't shut down the engine as per manufacturer documentation. Let's leave it to the resident expert Hellian to explain why the crew did the right thing.
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Re: Reverser Light Leads to Engine Shutdown

Post by Heliian »

Calm down telex. Can you not see how easily this mistake was made? The reverser was a technical fault, the crew's actions were a human factors error. Complacency, maybe fatigue, maybe lack of awareness. In their minds they saw danger and tried to mitigate that risk immediately by stowing the engine, immediate threat over. They then reverted to their training and referenced the qrh (whatever you want to call it), rectified the situation and continued along. Maybe they need more sim time for differences, some additional training.
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telex
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Re: Reverser Light Leads to Engine Shutdown

Post by telex »

Heliian wrote: Mon May 27, 2019 7:05 am Calm down telex. Can you not see how easily this mistake was made? The reverser was a technical fault, the crew's actions were a human factors error. Complacency, maybe fatigue, maybe lack of awareness. In their minds they saw danger and tried to mitigate that risk immediately by stowing the engine, immediate threat over. They then reverted to their training and referenced the qrh (whatever you want to call it), rectified the situation and continued along. Maybe they need more sim time for differences, some additional training.
You have morphed your position into more silly bugger.

Your position is the crew did the right thing. Shutting down an engine on an airplane that does not require an engine to be shutdown for fault x is not the right thing.

"Taking action" is not the right thing. Taking the correct action is the right thing.

Simple, right?
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Re: Reverser Light Leads to Engine Shutdown

Post by fish4life »

Heliian wrote: Mon May 27, 2019 7:05 am Calm down telex. Can you not see how easily this mistake was made? The reverser was a technical fault, the crew's actions were a human factors error. Complacency, maybe fatigue, maybe lack of awareness. In their minds they saw danger and tried to mitigate that risk immediately by stowing the engine, immediate threat over. They then reverted to their training and referenced the qrh (whatever you want to call it), rectified the situation and continued along. Maybe they need more sim time for differences, some additional training.
Now I’m more confused is it memory or is it QRC, because if it’s a QRC thing I’m extremely concerned if a crew did it by memory since that’s the whole point of a QRC
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