(Required) Black hole departure.

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rookiepilot
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(Required) Black hole departure.

Post by rookiepilot » Sun Jun 09, 2019 5:10 pm

https://www.flyingmag.com/aftermath-into-the-dark

As Peter Garrison's outstanding work has been linked, I happened on this one profiling 3 somewhat similar fatal accidents, one fairly recent.

First one, 1995:

On a November night in 1995, a Beech Baron 58 departed from Runway 24 at Cleveland’s Burke Lakefront Airport (KBKL), on the south shore of Lake Erie. It was bound for Raleigh, North Carolina, with five aboard. The Baron climbed to 200 feet above the end of the runway and began a right turn. The tower controller, who had been watching the airplane, turned away. A couple of minutes later, he had a call from a city operations office asking whether he could see smoke out on the lake.

Second:

On a clear, moonlit evening in January 2008, a Baron 58 left KBKL for Niagara Falls. The pilot, 68, an 18,000-hour ATP and CFI–I with a stack of ratings, was alone. He took off from Runway 24 with instructions to turn right on course. The tower controller watched as the Baron climbed, banked to the right and then descended in a steepening arc and plunged into the lake.

Third: (late 2016, thread here) http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopi ... hilit=Kbkl

"In December 2016, an hour before midnight, a Cessna Citation CJ4 took off from Runway 24 at KBKL with instructions to turn right to 330 and maintain 2,000 feet.
You know what happened next."

What Peter doesn't explicitly say, is this instruction is required by ATC for all runway 24 IFR departures at Burke Lakefront, to avoid Cleveland Hopkins to the west. At least when I was there.

Kinda like the left turn off 26 at YTZ for the SID, but having done both (in the daytime) I think it's more extreme. I wouldn't want to do it on an overcast night if I could avoid it.

Good little article for the less experienced like me out there.
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Last edited by rookiepilot on Sun Jun 09, 2019 6:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

C.W.E.
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Re: (Required) Black hole departure.

Post by C.W.E. » Sun Jun 09, 2019 5:17 pm

Is there any difference between a " black hole departure " and a departure in IMC with a 200 foot ceiling?
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Re: (Required) Black hole departure.

Post by CpnCrunch » Sun Jun 09, 2019 5:49 pm

C.W.E. wrote:
Sun Jun 09, 2019 5:17 pm
Is there any difference between a " black hole departure " and a departure in IMC with a 200 foot ceiling?
Yes.
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Re: (Required) Black hole departure.

Post by rookiepilot » Sun Jun 09, 2019 5:50 pm

C.W.E. wrote:
Sun Jun 09, 2019 5:17 pm
Is there any difference between a " black hole departure " and a departure in IMC with a 200 foot ceiling?
Maybe the required turn, in these examples?
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Last edited by rookiepilot on Sun Jun 09, 2019 7:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: (Required) Black hole departure.

Post by pelmet » Sun Jun 09, 2019 6:11 pm

Well, the black hole departures are definitely different. At the short northern strips it was frequently a case of rotating and then it was if someone had painted all the windows black, even while the main gear was still on the ground.

Not a big deal, if you are onto the adequate instruments right away.

And some of these strips had close-in high terrain requiring a 180 degree turn starting at about one hundred feet.

In fact, I flew at more than one place where the engine out procedure was to start a fifteen degree banked turn at 50 feet.

Try handling that into the live engine pulling in the wrong direction toward a cliff while attempting to barely climb at V2. I’ll choose the 200 foot ceiling day to do it, if given the choice.

That being said, the article is probably more for the Vfr guys who should think about this on night departures, especially with a lot of water off the end of the runway or remote airports.

It has trapped more than a few pilots.

In the end, Scan, Scan, Scan(maybe even say it to yourself) if you have the instruments. If you don’t, don’t put yourself in such a position.
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Re: (Required) Black hole departure.

Post by cncpc » Sun Jun 09, 2019 6:24 pm

C.W.E. wrote:
Sun Jun 09, 2019 5:17 pm
Is there any difference between a " black hole departure " and a departure in IMC with a 200 foot ceiling?
I was thinking, Chuck, that in a VFR black hole dep. you may have the odd lights visible and mistake them for stars and combined with eyes outside, that could give you more problems than a straight in the clag departure where you know you've only got one place to look. Thinking a ground light is a star in the sky can be the start of bad things. I've had to fight that off a few times.
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Re: (Required) Black hole departure.

Post by cncpc » Sun Jun 09, 2019 6:27 pm

CpnCrunch wrote:
Sun Jun 09, 2019 5:49 pm
C.W.E. wrote:
Sun Jun 09, 2019 5:17 pm
Is there any difference between a " black hole departure " and a departure in IMC with a 200 foot ceiling?
Yes.
LOL. Well, a shorter way of putting it.
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Re: (Required) Black hole departure.

Post by C.W.E. » Sun Jun 09, 2019 6:40 pm

O.K. , let me put another way.

A black hole departure and a departure into IMC with a low ceiling should be treated the same way.

Flown by reference to instruments.

I always felt far more comfortable flying by reference to instruments right after lift off than looking outside and it had the added plus of more accurate control of the airplane.

But that is only my own personal opinion. :)
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Re: (Required) Black hole departure.

Post by oldtimer » Sun Jun 09, 2019 7:48 pm

Chuck, I have done various types of a black hole departure hundreds of times but always after I got my instrument rating so I felt more comfortable simply heads down monitoring the instrument panel. Now, I assume you have done much the same but how do you set the panel lights? down low so you can see outside or do like I do and turn them up nice and bright and never look outside unless there is something to see.
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Re: (Required) Black hole departure.

Post by C.W.E. » Sun Jun 09, 2019 7:59 pm

Now, I assume you have done much the same but how do you set the panel lights? down low so you can see outside or do like I do and turn them up nice and bright and never look outside unless there is something to see.
I do it like you do.

The instrument lights are set at the brightness that is most comfortable to see them.

There is no reason to look outside because there is no need to.

Flying by instruments is so much easier and accurate than looking outside.

So I don't look outside, why make things more difficult?
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Re: (Required) Black hole departure.

Post by lownslow » Sun Jun 09, 2019 8:17 pm

C.W.E. wrote:
Sun Jun 09, 2019 5:17 pm
Is there any difference between a " black hole departure " and a departure in IMC with a 200 foot ceiling?
Yes. One sounds like it should be easier than the other, it’s a VFR night after all. As you know, it isn’t easier.
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Re: (Required) Black hole departure.

Post by goingnowherefast » Mon Jun 10, 2019 4:51 am

I usually stare at my instruments and ignore outside when I'm flying VFR as well. In fact I do it all the time, not just night black hole departures. :rolleyes:
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Re: (Required) Black hole departure.

Post by TG » Mon Jun 10, 2019 6:25 am

C.W.E. wrote:
Sun Jun 09, 2019 5:17 pm
Is there any difference between a " black hole departure " and a departure in IMC with a 200 foot ceiling?
Chuck’s tactic.
I never saw you here asking a question while not having your answer already made up. Why not cut the chase and come straight to the point?

Me (and only so you can tell me to shove it :mrgreen: ) I find those fake questions annoying and arrogant. It is like you just want to push readers into their own mistakes or whatever then pin them down with your own wisdom.

Not a very CRM way of doing things.
With your vast and recognized flying experience you don’t need to.

This said, I agree, bright panel lights and head down on instruments as soon as possible no point looking outside in those conditions.
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Re: (Required) Black hole departure.

Post by corethatthermal » Mon Jun 10, 2019 8:11 am

Everyone knows that the gravitational forces in a black hole ( the centre of the earth ) are soo great, that you can certainly feel the forces on your control column pulling your plane down! The only device to counteract this evil monstrosity is the man-machine interface, called the instrument scan!
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Re: (Required) Black hole departure.

Post by digits_ » Mon Jun 10, 2019 9:06 am

goingnowherefast wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 4:51 am
I usually stare at my instruments and ignore outside when I'm flying VFR as well. In fact I do it all the time, not just night black hole departures. :rolleyes:
That's ok, you'll be flying more accurate like that anyway :smt040
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Re: (Required) Black hole departure.

Post by goingnowherefast » Mon Jun 10, 2019 10:57 am

Sarcasm aside, night black hole effect happens in VMC. Taking off straight into cloud obviously isn't in VMC. One big difference is the need to scan outside for traffic, thus being more susceptible to illusions...such as the black hole effect.

Its also risk management. What's the risk of black hole effect killing you? Whats the risk of a mid air collision killing you?
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Re: (Required) Black hole departure.

Post by Maynard » Thu Jun 13, 2019 11:13 am

C.W.E. wrote:
Sun Jun 09, 2019 5:17 pm
Is there any difference between a " black hole departure " and a departure in IMC with a 200 foot ceiling?
Yes, the pilot.
One departure can be done by a low time VFR only pilot. The other would only be done with an IFR pilot who's comfortable flying in IMC.
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Re: (Required) Black hole departure.

Post by C.W.E. » Thu Jun 13, 2019 4:58 pm

As I understand " black hole departure " it means there are no visual situational clues after departure only blackness.

So how can this be a VFR departure?
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Re: (Required) Black hole departure.

Post by CpnCrunch » Thu Jun 13, 2019 5:09 pm

C.W.E. wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 4:58 pm
As I understand " black hole departure " it means there are no visual situational clues after departure only blackness.

So how can this be a VFR departure?
Well the term "black hole" is usually used for approaches, not departures. It refers to the visual illusion of the runway lights, resulting in getting too low. Taking off VFR with no visual references is a whole different kettle of fish, and arguably isn't legal VFR because you don't have reference to the ground.
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Re: (Required) Black hole departure.

Post by rookiepilot » Thu Jun 13, 2019 5:16 pm

C.W.E. wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 4:58 pm
As I understand " black hole departure " it means there are no visual situational clues after departure only blackness.

So how can this be a VFR departure?
Well, it legally is. On my example, off Burke Rwy 24, It's a required 90 degree right turn for all aircraft over the lake to avoid the Class B. On any overcast night.....

Now technically there ARE visual references. But that might involve looking out a side window.

Besides it's a moot point. All three of these accidents it appears were IFR departures.
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Re: (Required) Black hole departure.

Post by C.W.E. » Thu Jun 13, 2019 5:45 pm

Well the term "black hole" is usually used for approaches, not departures.
Not in this discussion it is clearly described as a black hole " departure ".
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Re: (Required) Black hole departure.

Post by pelmet » Thu Jun 13, 2019 6:39 pm

And the correct response is from.....the one from Cpn Crunch.
CpnCrunch wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 5:09 pm
C.W.E. wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 4:58 pm
As I understand " black hole departure " it means there are no visual situational clues after departure only blackness.

So how can this be a VFR departure?
Taking off VFR with no visual references is a whole different kettle of fish, and arguably isn't legal VFR because you don't have reference to the ground.
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Re: (Required) Black hole departure.

Post by corethatthermal » Thu Jun 13, 2019 8:13 pm

The whole idea about the insidious and dangerous nature of a black hole departure is the fact that it is mostly the VFR pilots or IFR rated pilots flying VFR into an area where there is insufficient visual clues to legally and safely fly with reference to the ground. Most 100 hr wonders should have been taught that they need to evaluate whether that departure over the open body of water, rural unlit area etc Might involve the black hole phenomenon and if it does, don't take the flight VFR ! I feel that ANY night rating must have proficiency to the level to fly by instruments, whether it be black hole, approaches of cloud breaking ( not uncommon at night )
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Re: (Required) Black hole departure.

Post by jt8d » Thu Jun 13, 2019 8:28 pm

Black hole effect was more an arrival thing I always thought... having done lots of that kind of flying up north. Unless you have an instrument failure then how is it really a thing on departure?
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Re: (Required) Black hole departure.

Post by pelmet » Thu Jun 13, 2019 10:42 pm

jt8d wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 8:28 pm
Black hole effect was more an arrival thing I always thought... having done lots of that kind of flying up north. Unless you have an instrument failure then how is it really a thing on departure?
People not scanning their instruments or....unable to fly on instruments or....aircraft not sufficient equipped with operating instruments.
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