What do you do after landing long in a floatplane

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PilotDAR
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Re: What do you do after landing long in a floatplane

Post by PilotDAR »

but then again why not be able to use all the tools available
Well, out of interest, I've reviewed a half dozen floatplane flight manuals/supplements I have (including the Beaver and Twin Otter). They all state in normal procedures to hold the controls full nose up after touching down on the water until reaching taxi speed.

So I don't see how pushing the bows of the floats into the water is a "tool" for piloting [at least those] aircraft in accordance with their approved procedures, so why be able to use it?
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Re: What do you do after landing long in a floatplane

Post by fish4life »

BamajiAirInc. wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 7:27 am
Push forward hard once its on the water it wont flip,but it will porpoise.
Uhhh another hugely aircraft and float specific thing, If someone does that on a 185 with CAP 3000’s I would be terrified to watch and a good chance she’s flipping
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Re: What do you do after landing long in a floatplane

Post by shimmydampner »

PilotDAR wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 1:48 pm
Howabout just fly proper landings which do not require dramatic action to correct....
AuxBatOn wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 8:25 pm
Land long? Go around?
This isn't necessarily about landing long. Have you never been required to perform a water landing that is at the edge of your aircraft's theoretical envelope?
PilotDAR wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 8:47 pm
Well, out of interest, I've reviewed a half dozen floatplane flight manuals/supplements I have (including the Beaver and Twin Otter). They all state in normal procedures to hold the controls full nose up after touching down on the water until reaching taxi speed.

So I don't see how pushing the bows of the floats into the water is a "tool" for piloting [at least those] aircraft in accordance with their approved procedures, so why be able to use it?
Perhaps the test pilots were only familiar with the ubiquitous stick full back technique and thus, never tested anything else which means nothing else ever made it in to the supplement?
By all means, take your twin otter to some tiny piss pot lake and land and follow the approved procedures and watch it skip an extra 100 feet farther than necessary, slapping the heels off the water. Or stuff the nose, honk on the reverse and stop right fuckin now. It would seem there is at least anecdotal evidence that it's a pretty effective technique in this particular aircraft /float combination.
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Re: What do you do after landing long in a floatplane

Post by PilotDAR »

By all means, take your twin otter to some tiny piss pot lake and land
Or, just decline to land there in the first place. There have been a few lakes I have declined.

Sure there are other ways to do things than those presented it the flight manual, but they are unproven, and therefore their outcome uncertain. I suppose it you own the plane, and are alone, you are not morally bound. But, if you're flying a group of paying passengers in the boss's plane, do you want to be a test pilot then? You wouldn't fly a plane with unproven maintenance done to it, why would you fly it with an unproven technique?
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Re: What do you do after landing long in a floatplane

Post by valleyboy »

It's like rough water - I was taught to slowly push the stick forward after landing and keep the floats "cutting" as opposed to exposing the bottoms of the floats smacking the water and aircraft banging around. A/C like the bch 18 are very prone to split keels, avoiding rough water was always the priority but any wave will take it's toll, easing stress on floats and aircraft were important. I was even taught to slow taxi with stick forward and especially when turning downwind at idle rpm, stick forward and ailerons(possibly flaps also) as required to help with the turn. All this was practiced by seasoned full time float drivers and hauling back on the stick was a complete "no no" as was stick back and hi power turns down wind, can't turn down wind at idle power sail it back.

I can remember years ago meeting a guy who was a float instructor and I read his manual. I had been flying floats for a living at that time for about 5 years. I can remember thinking at the time "what the hell is this guy teaching, his water handling was almost opposite to everything I had been taught. I'm thinking that flying floats is becoming a lost art but doing it for a living and enjoying it for recreation are two different things.
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Re: What do you do after landing long in a floatplane

Post by corethatthermal »

hold the controls full nose up after touching down on the water until reaching taxi speed.
Another example of the flight manual written by "test" pilots with 3 dozen lawyers peering over his/her back !

That is a foolish statement, for seasoned pilots who would leave it on the step, but a little nose high, until it wants to fall off the step onto its taxi position. This thread perfectly shows that every A/C has a slightly ( and sometimes quite different ) approach to optimize landings and take-offs. Best to listen to 100 years of experience, then test and learn, then operate within your ( or your companies) level of safety which , of course, is often well within the A/C s limits. When has any flight manual spoken about backside approaches and how to do it safely? Somer operators/operations MUST do it everyday to stay in business, tell them that they are wrong lOL
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Re: What do you do after landing long in a floatplane

Post by corethatthermal »

As a commercial pilot, YOU do everything to maintain the highest levels of safety, optimize your flying to provide minimum wear and tear, and finally manage the flying to generate the most profits and least waste! A nose or tail dragging maneuver shows poor pilotage at a minimum iF it is not an emergency maneuver. But, you are not a professional IF you do not know or are not able to utilize the A/C within its full potential to avoid accidents or incidents.

Flying the plane should be secondary to your abilities,,,,, Being a professional part of the organization and effectively handling ANY emergency etc in a most professional and capable manner is why YOU have a commercial licence
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Re: What do you do after landing long in a floatplane

Post by CLguy »

hold the controls full nose up after touching down on the water until reaching taxi speed.

Let me know how that technique works out for you when you’re landing in 4 foot swells in the Indian Ocean on a daily basis.
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Re: What do you do after landing long in a floatplane

Post by corethatthermal »

If you are approaching an intersection ( with a car, not a plane ) and the light is green, what do you do? A learner driver ( private pilot ) may buzz on through the intersection, not looking to the left of the right or the rear view mirror. What does a seasoned wise driver do?

Yes. you look left and right, looking for the driver who failed to see the light or thought it was green, or the drunk driver etc. That is defensive AND seasoned driving. Accidents don't just happen , they often result from breaking the rules of the road ( Air)

The same thing happens with the seasoned/ commercial pilot,, they fly the A/C instinctively and are looking out for the gotcha moments, they are managing the cockpit/cabin discourse and control the anxiety level with subtle ease. Their flight plan has already arrived at destination with only the unknown to be easily managed in a professional manner.

IF you want to be professional at anything you go and define the limits ( personal/ device etc) and then operate within the limits and your ability KNOWING and HAVING contingencies for most everything that goes wrong!
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Re: What do you do after landing long in a floatplane

Post by phillyfan »

Following an 80 year old manual word for word that was written when the airplane had less then 100 hours of test pilot time on it, is idiotic. Countless hours of real life operational conditions, over decades count for way more then the manual. That being said I am not sure pulling back or pushing forward are really gonna make a significant difference.
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Re: What do you do after landing long in a floatplane

Post by C.W.E. »

That being said I am not sure pulling back or pushing forward are really gonna make a significant difference.
It will make a significant difference if it digs in and flips over.

The safe way to operate the machine is maintain the best attitude on the water for the airplane you are operating.

If forward movement of the controls is needed to maintain a safe attitude that is the proper way to operate it.
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Re: What do you do after landing long in a floatplane

Post by digits_ »

CLguy wrote:
Sun Jun 16, 2019 7:08 pm
hold the controls full nose up after touching down on the water until reaching taxi speed.

Let me know how that technique works out for you when you’re landing in 4 foot swells in the Indian Ocean on a daily basis.
If you need short field techniques for a landing in the Indian Ocean, you are doing something seriously wrong though.
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Re: What do you do after landing long in a floatplane

Post by C.W.E. »

He does not mean in the open ocean he is referring to operating in the Maldives.
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Re: What do you do after landing long in a floatplane

Post by J31 »

digits_ wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 6:38 pm
CLguy wrote:
Sun Jun 16, 2019 7:08 pm
hold the controls full nose up after touching down on the water until reaching taxi speed.

Let me know how that technique works out for you when you’re landing in 4 foot swells in the Indian Ocean on a daily basis.
If you need short field techniques for a landing in the Indian Ocean, you are doing something seriously wrong though.
digits, I am trying to see where you are going with that comment?

Although there are not many obstacles above the water in the Dives, there are many just below the surface. With ocean swells washing across the lagoons coupled with high winds present many confined areas of operations in the Maldives.
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Re: What do you do after landing long in a floatplane

Post by shimmydampner »

digits_ wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 6:38 pm
If you need short field techniques for a landing in the Indian Ocean, you are doing something seriously wrong though.
So you're advocating smashing across more swells/waves as opposed to fewer? Does this technique draw on as much twin otter float captain time as I assume it does?
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Re: What do you do after landing long in a floatplane

Post by PilotDAR »

Following an 80 year old manual word for word that was written when the airplane had less then 100 hours of test pilot time on it, is idiotic.
Hmmm, at what age do flight manual supplements I wrote, and are approved by TC, transition from being approved and authoritative, to being idiotic? Perhaps I'll revise them before that age!
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Re: What do you do after landing long in a floatplane

Post by digits_ »

J31 wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 8:03 pm
digits_ wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 6:38 pm
CLguy wrote:
Sun Jun 16, 2019 7:08 pm
hold the controls full nose up after touching down on the water until reaching taxi speed.

Let me know how that technique works out for you when you’re landing in 4 foot swells in the Indian Ocean on a daily basis.
If you need short field techniques for a landing in the Indian Ocean, you are doing something seriously wrong though.
digits, I am trying to see where you are going with that comment?
It was a joke. Needing short field techniques to land in an area that's 70 million square km big. You have to admit it sounds a bit funny if you look at the numbers.
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Re: What do you do after landing long in a floatplane

Post by J31 »

digits_ wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 6:27 am
J31 wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 8:03 pm
digits_ wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 6:38 pm


If you need short field techniques for a landing in the Indian Ocean, you are doing something seriously wrong though.
digits, I am trying to see where you are going with that comment?
It was a joke. Needing short field techniques to land in an area that's 70 million square km big. You have to admit it sounds a bit funny if you look at the numbers.
:smt040
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Re: What do you do after landing long in a floatplane

Post by digits_ »

It must be nice to fly in an area where your cruise speed is lower than your V1 :mrgreen:
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Re: What do you do after landing long in a floatplane

Post by shimmydampner »

digits_ wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 6:27 am
You have to admit it sounds a bit funny if you look at the numbers.
Only if you don't know what you're talking about.
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Re: What do you do after landing long in a floatplane

Post by Rowdy »

Who here has operated in and out of Ahousat? Who has flown a 180 or Beaver in there?

Its a unique spot. There are basically two good spots/markers that would have me going around or looking for a quick option to slow down. Even on a few dozen blustery and particularly sporting days over the years, I still didn't seem to have an issue operating there. I'm also by no means a god of aviating on pontoons either. The pilots at TA go in and out of Ahousat about a billion times, so it sort of surprises me.. but perhaps in this current pilot climate, they were short on experience? Pretty sure the 180's were on Edo's.. I mostly flew the -2 there though and it's been a while.

I like that we're discussing the twin otters traits operating in the indian ocean in a thread on a Cessna accident on the west coast of vancouver island :rolleyes:

When I flew the twotter it was common practice to push stick full forward and use reverse upon touchdown. On Caps, if you pulled BACK you'd be hopping,skipping and bouncing along off the heels. There are also many spots in the 'dives that require short field technique inside of lagoons. I'd say Shimmydampner is spot on

Dragging the heels works in a conventional seaplane but only to a certain extent. You could also dump the lift quickly to help. I've seen many come forward on the floats just prior to digging to help slow as well. I'm not advocating it though.
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Re: What do you do after landing long in a floatplane

Post by beaverbob »

This technique does not need a lot of training. Here is what you do. On a nice day when you land and are first on the step just push forward on the column very gently just enough to feel extra drag. Now you know how it works. Next time just add a bit more pressure until you feel increased float drag. As the plane slows down add a bit more pressure. Especially in the larger float planes with longer floats. Works in any float plane but the smaller the plane the shorter the float so the more sensitive. You will find with experience just how gentle or aggressive you can be. On a different skill matter, if you have to take off in a substantial crosswind and the plane starts to weathercock as you get on the step and the rudder does not respond, pull the column all the way back. When the stern of the floats hit the water it will straighten you immediately.

Bob
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Re: What do you do after landing long in a floatplane

Post by valleyboy »

I was always taught to push :smt040
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Re: What do you do after landing long in a floatplane

Post by C.W.E. »

A real professional knows when to pull out.
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Re: What do you do after landing long in a floatplane

Post by pelmet »

This guy landed long and hit a log.....

"C-FGQC, a DHC-2 aircraft operated by Inland Air Charters, was conducting a flight from Dolphins
Lodge, BC to Seal Cove (CZSW), BC with a pilot and 4 passengers on board. On arrival to CZSW,
the pilot inspected the water landing area from overhead. On landing, the aircraft touched down
farther than expected and the aircraft collided with a log. There were no injuries. The operator's
maintenance inspected the aircraft and found no damage."
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