North Star BT67 put down on lake

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MUSKEG
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Re: North Star BT67 put down on lake

Post by MUSKEG »

Doesn’t say this was their first flight.
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Spandau
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Re: North Star BT67 put down on lake

Post by Spandau »

Might have just shut down the wrong one. Wouldn't be the first time it's been done.
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ipilot54
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Re: North Star BT67 put down on lake

Post by ipilot54 »

I was up until about midnight in that general area. Don't have any idea what happened however, if I needed to ditch it would have been a perfect night to do so. The lakes looked like mirrors with no wind and the moon, although not full, was quite bright. In fact, my FO commented "what a beautiful night".

And while you can see the "glow" on the horizon at this time of the year at that time, it is of no help. The moon and clear skies are as it appeared from our our perspective are.
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fish4life
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Re: North Star BT67 put down on lake

Post by fish4life »

ipilot54 wrote:
Sat Jun 22, 2019 3:18 pm
I was up until about midnight in that general area. Don't have any idea what happened however, if I needed to ditch it would have been a perfect night to do so. The lakes looked like mirrors with no wind and the moon, although not full, was quite bright. In fact, my FO commented "what a beautiful night".

And while you can see the "glow" on the horizon at this time of the year at that time, it is of no help. The moon and clear skies are as it appeared from our our perspective are.
If the lakes are mirrored it is actually way harder and worse to do especially if dead sticking it in there, they must have been ex float pilots because most other pilots won’t judge glassy water correctly
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corethatthermal
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Re: North Star BT67 put down on lake

Post by corethatthermal »

because most other pilots won’t judge glassy water correctly
You dont "judge" a glassy water landing, you recognize it is glassy and then apply the technique which is basically an instrument approach to touchdown from a minimum safe height above water.
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goingnowherefast
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Re: North Star BT67 put down on lake

Post by goingnowherefast »

So why did they end up there?

I'm surprised Cat and Ilya aren't all over this with their typical rhetoric. Maybe because it's a DC3 and DC3 pilots are perfect?
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Dry Guy
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Re: North Star BT67 put down on lake

Post by Dry Guy »

goingnowherefast wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 8:50 am
So why did they end up there?

I'm surprised Cat and Ilya aren't all over this with their typical rhetoric. Maybe because it's a DC3 and DC3 pilots are perfect?

Illya is friends with people at the company so won't hold them to the same standard as others.
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digits_
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Re: North Star BT67 put down on lake

Post by digits_ »

goingnowherefast wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 8:50 am
So why did they end up there?

I'm surprised Cat and Ilya aren't all over this with their typical rhetoric. Maybe because it's a DC3 and DC3 pilots are perfect?
Are you saying DC3 pilots aren't perfect?





:wink:
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cncpc
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Re: North Star BT67 put down on lake

Post by cncpc »

Dry Guy wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 8:42 am
I can't see anyone picking up cargo at 1:00 am. I'd imagine this was a fuel hauler. Maybe it was on fire. A hot pump and a leaky hose or something. I'd be wanting to get out of a burning fuel plane asap with tanks full of fuel vapors. Not sure if I'd ditch it or not.
You wouldn't ditch a burning airplane?
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cncpc
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Re: North Star BT67 put down on lake

Post by cncpc »

telex wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 10:52 pm
pelmet wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 9:43 pm
There can be other reasons for a dual engine failure. Just ask Sully.
Quartering tailwind with decreasing pressure?
Whatever happened to that guy?
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Warden
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Re: North Star BT67 put down on lake

Post by Warden »

Dry Guy wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 9:23 am
goingnowherefast wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 8:50 am
So why did they end up there?

I'm surprised Cat and Ilya aren't all over this with their typical rhetoric. Maybe because it's a DC3 and DC3 pilots are perfect?

Illya is friends with people at the company so won't hold them to the same standard as others.
Anyone know who the crew was?
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C.W.E.
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Re: North Star BT67 put down on lake

Post by C.W.E. »

I'm surprised Cat and Ilya aren't all over this with their typical rhetoric. Maybe because it's a DC3 and DC3 pilots are perfect?
Maybe it's because we have no idea why it ended up there.
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Just another canuck
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Re: North Star BT67 put down on lake

Post by Just another canuck »

Keep in mind could be a rumour only but I heard the PM pulled the condition levers instead of the props. Which when you think about it, is the most reasonable scenario I can think of. Better chance of hitting lotto max on a weekly basis than having true dual engine failures. Fuel contamination seems unlikely to me cause they already flew a leg. That thing will fly just fine on one so... And I'd really like to know what happened to the one on the ice too.
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Warden
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Re: North Star BT67 put down on lake

Post by Warden »

Just another canuck wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 1:33 pm
Keep in mind could be a rumour only but I heard the PM pulled the condition levers instead of the props. Which when you think about it, is the most reasonable scenario I can think of. Better chance of hitting lotto max on a weekly basis than having true dual engine failures. Fuel contamination seems unlikely to me cause they already flew a leg. That thing will fly just fine on one so... And I'd really like to know what happened to the one on the ice too.
If that's the case, that is a pretty significant deviation. And even if it was the PM, the PF still takes blame since everything is supposed to be confirmed. Unless, the PM action-ed something without confirmation which is even worse.

Every prop plane I've flown it has been drilled into me to **take your time** to a point, when you run a drill. The aircraft was reported empty, correct? Even with one engine un feathered the Basler is a powerful bird. Why rush? It will fly.

The same thing happened to the ATR in China. Crews getting too worked up and cracking under the pressure of an emergency and not following SOP.

Honestly, I would rather hear that it was mechanical because if it was another crew error it really doesn't bode well for the reputation of "Canadian Pilots" being some of the best in the world. Many issues in the past few years. Makes you wonder if our training in Canada is really as good as we think it is.
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Just another canuck
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Re: North Star BT67 put down on lake

Post by Just another canuck »

I meant there was no failure. He went to pull the props back after takeoff and pulled the condition levers by mistake and shut the whole thing down inadvertently.
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Re: North Star BT67 put down on lake

Post by digits_ »

Just another canuck wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 2:00 pm
I meant there was no failure. He went to pull the props back after takeoff and pulled the condition levers by mistake and shut the whole thing down inadvertently.
If that happened and you put the condition levers back in the normal position, would the engines fire up again? If so, how long would it take?
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Warden
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Re: North Star BT67 put down on lake

Post by Warden »

Just another canuck wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 2:00 pm
I meant there was no failure. He went to pull the props back after takeoff and pulled the condition levers by mistake and shut the whole thing down inadvertently.
Oh wow, if that's the case... I don't know what to say.
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Just another canuck
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Re: North Star BT67 put down on lake

Post by Just another canuck »

digits_ wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 2:10 pm
Just another canuck wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 2:00 pm
I meant there was no failure. He went to pull the props back after takeoff and pulled the condition levers by mistake and shut the whole thing down inadvertently.
If that happened and you put the condition levers back in the normal position, would the engines fire up again? If so, how long would it take?
If you were really fast, it might be okay. You could also over temp everything and melt the whole damn thing. I know of three occasions when it happened. Twice in a Caravan and once in a PC12. They both have safety mechanisms now which make it more difficult to pull to cut off. I can't remember if the Basler has anything or not. It's been awhile.
Warden wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 2:12 pm
[quote="Just another canuck" post_id=<a href="tel:1082391">1082391</a> time=<a href="tel:1561410040">1561410040</a> user_id=17206]
I meant there was no failure. He went to pull the props back after takeoff and pulled the condition levers by mistake and shut the whole thing down inadvertently.
Oh wow, if that's the case... I don't know what to say.
[/quote]

Yeah. No kidding. Me neither.
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digits_
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Re: North Star BT67 put down on lake

Post by digits_ »

Just another canuck wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 2:25 pm
digits_ wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 2:10 pm
Just another canuck wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 2:00 pm
I meant there was no failure. He went to pull the props back after takeoff and pulled the condition levers by mistake and shut the whole thing down inadvertently.
If that happened and you put the condition levers back in the normal position, would the engines fire up again? If so, how long would it take?
If you were really fast, it might be okay. You could also over temp everything and melt the whole damn thing. I know of three occasions when it happened. Twice in a Caravan and once in a PC12. They both have safety mechanisms now which make it more difficult to pull to cut off. I can't remember if the Basler has anything or not. It's been awhile.
Interesting...
Just another canuck wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 2:25 pm
Warden wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 2:12 pm
Just another canuck wrote: I meant there was no failure. He went to pull the props back after takeoff and pulled the condition levers by mistake and shut the whole thing down inadvertently.
Oh wow, if that's the case... I don't know what to say.
Yeah. No kidding. Me neither.
Fatigue? Do you know if the crew had been flying the whole day? It was the middle of the night...
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Illya Kuryakin
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Re: North Star BT67 put down on lake

Post by Illya Kuryakin »

WOW
The hot air. Some day I'll just land one in a swamp, then tune here to learn how I did.
Illya
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Dry Guy
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Re: North Star BT67 put down on lake

Post by Dry Guy »

cncpc wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 12:12 pm
You wouldn't ditch a burning airplane?
A couple hundred feet from a runway? It'd have to be a really bad fire.

I believe the wrong lever story. There is a dogleg in the pedestal but those aren't much of deterrent and they tend to get rounded down over time too.

Image
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corethatthermal
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Re: North Star BT67 put down on lake

Post by corethatthermal »

Could they have made the throttle levers any taller?
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goingnowherefast
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Re: North Star BT67 put down on lake

Post by goingnowherefast »

There's quite a big space between the condition levers and the prop levers. Especially if the props were at max for T/O. Lateral and longitudinal spacing is huge compared to King Airs and such.

Illya, if you put one down in a swamp, I'd want to know why. Run out of gas, then Cat will crucify you. Tanks full of DEF, it's not your fault.
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pelmet
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Re: North Star BT67 put down on lake

Post by pelmet »

Moving the condition levers instead of the power levers would only happen if one doesn't look before touching. It is easy to happen. Did similar a long time ago in initial training in a C150 when I moved the mixture instead of the throttle. Engine power reduced more quickly than expected.

Just the other day in a training device for a new aircraft, I moved two switches that were the wrong ones(but looked similar), strictly because I moved too fast and didn't identify the switch before moving it. Embarrassing. It just takes discipline and perhaps occasional reminders to yourself.

Dark cockpit just makes it worse.
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C.W.E.
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Re: North Star BT67 put down on lake

Post by C.W.E. »

How do you move the condition levers down without noticing that they have to move to the left to get past the indents?
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