North Star BT67 put down on lake

Topics related to accidents, incidents & over due aircraft should be placed in this forum.

Moderators: sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister, North Shore

Post Reply
digits_
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 5919
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2011 2:26 am

Re: North Star BT67 put down on lake

Post by digits_ »

Just another canuck wrote: Mon Jun 24, 2019 2:00 pm I meant there was no failure. He went to pull the props back after takeoff and pulled the condition levers by mistake and shut the whole thing down inadvertently.
If that happened and you put the condition levers back in the normal position, would the engines fire up again? If so, how long would it take?
---------- ADS -----------
 
As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
Warden
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 120
Joined: Tue Jun 04, 2019 10:08 pm

Re: North Star BT67 put down on lake

Post by Warden »

Just another canuck wrote: Mon Jun 24, 2019 2:00 pm I meant there was no failure. He went to pull the props back after takeoff and pulled the condition levers by mistake and shut the whole thing down inadvertently.
Oh wow, if that's the case... I don't know what to say.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Just another canuck
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2083
Joined: Wed May 21, 2008 6:21 am
Location: The Lake.

Re: North Star BT67 put down on lake

Post by Just another canuck »

---------- ADS -----------
 
Last edited by Just another canuck on Sat Feb 19, 2022 3:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Twenty years from now you'll be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the things you did do.
So throw off the bowlines.
Sail away from the safe harbor.
Catch the trade winds in your sails.
Explore. Dream. Discover.
digits_
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 5919
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2011 2:26 am

Re: North Star BT67 put down on lake

Post by digits_ »

Just another canuck wrote: Mon Jun 24, 2019 2:25 pm
digits_ wrote: Mon Jun 24, 2019 2:10 pm
Just another canuck wrote: Mon Jun 24, 2019 2:00 pm I meant there was no failure. He went to pull the props back after takeoff and pulled the condition levers by mistake and shut the whole thing down inadvertently.
If that happened and you put the condition levers back in the normal position, would the engines fire up again? If so, how long would it take?
If you were really fast, it might be okay. You could also over temp everything and melt the whole damn thing. I know of three occasions when it happened. Twice in a Caravan and once in a PC12. They both have safety mechanisms now which make it more difficult to pull to cut off. I can't remember if the Basler has anything or not. It's been awhile.
Interesting...
Just another canuck wrote: Mon Jun 24, 2019 2:25 pm
Warden wrote: Mon Jun 24, 2019 2:12 pm
Just another canuck wrote: I meant there was no failure. He went to pull the props back after takeoff and pulled the condition levers by mistake and shut the whole thing down inadvertently.
Oh wow, if that's the case... I don't know what to say.
Yeah. No kidding. Me neither.
Fatigue? Do you know if the crew had been flying the whole day? It was the middle of the night...
---------- ADS -----------
 
As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
Illya Kuryakin
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1311
Joined: Mon Mar 24, 2014 11:14 pm
Location: The Gulag Archipelago

Re: North Star BT67 put down on lake

Post by Illya Kuryakin »

WOW
The hot air. Some day I'll just land one in a swamp, then tune here to learn how I did.
Illya
---------- ADS -----------
 
Wish I didn't know now, what I didn't know then.
Dry Guy
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 331
Joined: Mon Apr 17, 2017 2:44 pm

Re: North Star BT67 put down on lake

Post by Dry Guy »

cncpc wrote: Mon Jun 24, 2019 12:12 pm You wouldn't ditch a burning airplane?
A couple hundred feet from a runway? It'd have to be a really bad fire.

I believe the wrong lever story. There is a dogleg in the pedestal but those aren't much of deterrent and they tend to get rounded down over time too.

Image
---------- ADS -----------
 
corethatthermal
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 391
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 7:27 pm

Re: North Star BT67 put down on lake

Post by corethatthermal »

Could they have made the throttle levers any taller?
---------- ADS -----------
 
goingnowherefast
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1936
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2013 9:24 am

Re: North Star BT67 put down on lake

Post by goingnowherefast »

There's quite a big space between the condition levers and the prop levers. Especially if the props were at max for T/O. Lateral and longitudinal spacing is huge compared to King Airs and such.

Illya, if you put one down in a swamp, I'd want to know why. Run out of gas, then Cat will crucify you. Tanks full of DEF, it's not your fault.
---------- ADS -----------
 
pelmet
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 7129
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2005 2:48 pm

Re: North Star BT67 put down on lake

Post by pelmet »

Moving the condition levers instead of the power levers would only happen if one doesn't look before touching. It is easy to happen. Did similar a long time ago in initial training in a C150 when I moved the mixture instead of the throttle. Engine power reduced more quickly than expected.

Just the other day in a training device for a new aircraft, I moved two switches that were the wrong ones(but looked similar), strictly because I moved too fast and didn't identify the switch before moving it. Embarrassing. It just takes discipline and perhaps occasional reminders to yourself.

Dark cockpit just makes it worse.
---------- ADS -----------
 
C.W.E.
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1262
Joined: Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:22 pm

Re: North Star BT67 put down on lake

Post by C.W.E. »

How do you move the condition levers down without noticing that they have to move to the left to get past the indents?
---------- ADS -----------
 
7ECA
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1281
Joined: Thu Jul 03, 2014 4:33 pm

Re: North Star BT67 put down on lake

Post by 7ECA »

Assuming the intent was to reduce prop RPM after takeoff, why would you be pulling the prop levers all the way back into feather?

Seems like just another odd theory.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Illya Kuryakin
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1311
Joined: Mon Mar 24, 2014 11:14 pm
Location: The Gulag Archipelago

Re: North Star BT67 put down on lake

Post by Illya Kuryakin »

corethatthermal wrote: Mon Jun 24, 2019 6:01 pm Could they have made the throttle levers any taller?
These things are flown by biker wannabes. The tall throttles make the drivers think of ape hangars.
Illya
---------- ADS -----------
 
Wish I didn't know now, what I didn't know then.
Just another canuck
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2083
Joined: Wed May 21, 2008 6:21 am
Location: The Lake.

Re: North Star BT67 put down on lake

Post by Just another canuck »

---------- ADS -----------
 
Last edited by Just another canuck on Sat Feb 19, 2022 3:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Twenty years from now you'll be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the things you did do.
So throw off the bowlines.
Sail away from the safe harbor.
Catch the trade winds in your sails.
Explore. Dream. Discover.
bring me the horizon
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 98
Joined: Mon Sep 24, 2012 6:48 pm

Re: North Star BT67 put down on lake

Post by bring me the horizon »

I don't buy it. Max takeoff power is 100% torque and governs at 1700 rpm. Passed 400' and you set climb power, which is 95% torque and 1700 rpm. So essentially, you don't touch the props until you level out for cruise which could be anywhere between 1000-1500 rpm making sure you don't over torque past 95%.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Meatservo
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2565
Joined: Wed Mar 16, 2005 11:07 pm
Location: Negative sequencial vortex

Re: North Star BT67 put down on lake

Post by Meatservo »

Illya Kuryakin wrote: Mon Jun 24, 2019 7:23 pm
corethatthermal wrote: Mon Jun 24, 2019 6:01 pm Could they have made the throttle levers any taller?
These things are flown by biker wannabes. The tall throttles make the drivers think of ape hangars.
Illya
*HANGERS

Why are people so consistently unable to understand the difference between a hangar and a hanger?
---------- ADS -----------
 
If I'd known I was going to live this long, I'd have taken better care of myself
shimmydampner
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1764
Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2004 3:59 pm

Re: North Star BT67 put down on lake

Post by shimmydampner »

Illya Kuryakin wrote: Mon Jun 24, 2019 4:25 pm WOW
The hot air. Some day I'll just land one in a swamp, then tune here to learn how I did.
Illya
You didn't mind all the speculation on the last dual flameout incident. Why've you got your knickers in a twist over this one?
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
PilotDAR
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 4051
Joined: Sun Sep 30, 2012 6:46 pm
Location: Near CNJ4 Orillia, Ontario

Re: North Star BT67 put down on lake

Post by PilotDAR »

Basler has made the engine control knobs correctly, so they conform to the required shapes. In the dark, you can feel the shape of the knob to assure you're holding the correct one before moving it. On the Basler, the power levers are very tall (with round, black knobs) because there is a spring loaded mechanism within each power lever arm for the reverse interlock sliding elements.

The condition levers have gates at the top of their motion, so both would have to be moved to the left, and then toward closed to shut down the engine(s), and as said, the prop levers have a gate at feather. So, a pilot would not be either shutting down engines, nor feathering propellers, without purposefully moving the levers past gates. The controls conform to all the norms of PT6 engine powered airplanes.

Letting alone pulling engine control suddenly all the way back without an accompanying emergency, there is no reason to mistake the engine controls in a Basler.

If there are any other Basler cockpit control questions, I'm in a hangar with two Baslers for the week....
---------- ADS -----------
 
goingnowherefast
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1936
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2013 9:24 am

Re: North Star BT67 put down on lake

Post by goingnowherefast »

The only way I'd believe the condition lever story is if the PM was horribly fatigued, 17 hour day at 2am fatigued. Super low experience, to the point they haven't developed muscle memory yet on type. Then have the condition lever gates worn down so bad they're ineffective.

There's just too many layers of swiss cheese to pull the condition levers back by accident. (As opposed to the power levers, since props remain at max for climb)
---------- ADS -----------
 
Just another canuck
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2083
Joined: Wed May 21, 2008 6:21 am
Location: The Lake.

Re: North Star BT67 put down on lake

Post by Just another canuck »

..
---------- ADS -----------
 
Last edited by Just another canuck on Sat Feb 19, 2022 3:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Twenty years from now you'll be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the things you did do.
So throw off the bowlines.
Sail away from the safe harbor.
Catch the trade winds in your sails.
Explore. Dream. Discover.
Victory
Rank 6
Rank 6
Posts: 464
Joined: Tue Sep 19, 2017 8:32 am

Re: North Star BT67 put down on lake

Post by Victory »

bring me the horizon wrote: Mon Jun 24, 2019 9:50 pm I don't buy it. Max takeoff power is 100% torque and governs at 1700 rpm. Passed 400' and you set climb power, which is 95% torque and 1700 rpm. So essentially, you don't touch the props until you level out for cruise which could be anywhere between 1000-1500 rpm making sure you don't over torque past 95%.
Not every company runs the same prop settings.

Also there is a chance they had already reached cruise altitude when they shut down the engines. Perhaps that altitude was low if they didn't want to spend 10 minutes climbing into an increasing headwind for a 30 minute flight.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Post Reply

Return to “Accidents, Incidents & Overdue Aircraft”