Hawaii Twin Skydive Accident, 11 dead.

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rookiepilot
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Hawaii Twin Skydive Accident, 11 dead.

Post by rookiepilot » Mon Jun 24, 2019 2:56 pm

https://www.foxnews.com/us/ntsb-investi ... killing-11

Let's try this again --- And maybe this one won't get hijacked this time.

A National Transportation Safety Board team tasked with investigating the skydiving charter plane that crashed in Hawaii Friday -- killing 11 people in the deadliest U.S. civil aviation accident since 2011 -- says they are going to focus on the quality of repairs that had been made on the aircraft in the years leading up to the disaster.


It has emerged that the plane involved in the accident had crashed in 2016 in California and sustained significant damage to its tail. It was repaired and then returned to service before crashing again last week in a flight operated by the Oahu Parachute Center skydiving company. Officials have not yet released the identities of the victims, but one family has come forward to share their grief.

"We will be looking at the quality of those repairs and whether it was inspected and whether it was airworthy," the NTSB's Jennifer Homendy said, adding that the 1967 Beechcraft King Air twin-engine turboprop plane was equipped to carry 13 people.

An NTSB report compiled after the 2016 crash revealed that the plane had stalled three times and spun out due to the fact it was too heavily weighted to the back. The pilot only managed to land the plane after the skydivers on board jumped out.

"Weight and balance has a factor in the safety of these operations and that's a calculation that needs to be made before a plane is operated," Homendy said.

The NTSB will release a preliminary report in about two weeks and a final report once the investigation is complete, which could take up to two years. Homendy said NTSB may release urgent safety recommendations before the final report comes out.

Friday's crash was the most deadly civil aviation accident in the United States since a 2011 Reno Air Show wreck killed a pilot and 10 spectators in Nevada, the Associated Press reported.

Witnesses say the plane crashed 20 or 30 seconds after it took off.

"It's now confirmed that 11 people died in the terrible crash at Dillingham Airfield," Honolulu Mayor Kirk Caldwell tweeted over the weekend. "Our hearts ache for the families and friends of the victims during this very difficult time."

Some family members who did not go on the skydiving trip were present at the crash site. Hawaii News Now reported the plane was fully engulfed in flames when first responders arrived and that smoke was visible for miles.
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Re: Hawaii Twin Skydive Accident, 11 dead.

Post by PilotDAR » Tue Jun 25, 2019 4:22 am

Years ago, it was my decision to stop flying for a jump operation, as they refused to put measures into place to assure W&B compliance for flights. The eager young CPL time builder pilots who took over after me, seemed to not care, and also have far less experience than I had. Being overweight is bad, and potentially unsafe. Being aft of the C of G limit is seriously unsafe, as you won't know the seriousness of the handling deficiency you've created in the aircraft until it becomes unflyable, and you can't get it back under control. Being overweight and behind the aft C of G limit multiplies the problem by four.

I have know knowledge of why the Hawaii King Air crashed, and will read with interest.....
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Re: Hawaii Twin Skydive Accident, 11 dead.

Post by C.W.E. » Tue Jun 25, 2019 8:31 am

Years ago, it was my decision to stop flying for a jump operation,
Many decades ago I was asked by a jump group to fly some flights for them in a C 185.

When they were ready to go they wanted to put more people than the airplane was certified for and I told them I would not fly it.

They really got all twisted out of shape because I had refused to fly it.

So I told them to have T.C. issue them a permit for the over weight out of C of G problem .

They never asked me again.
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Re: Hawaii Twin Skydive Accident, 11 dead.

Post by bodyflyer2 » Thu Jun 27, 2019 9:17 am

In the old days, jump operations (US & Canada) sometimes were a lot more about just piling 'em into the plane. As long as you could clear the trees!
Tons of stories like that among skydivers of the '60s, '70s, and even somewhat into the '80s.

In the last couple decades things have gotten a lot better. Seatbelts are not just mandatory but actually used at almost all DZ's and desired by skydivers. What with bigger established dropzones, Automatic Activation Devices for skydivers, higher jump altitudes (using turbine aircraft) and other factors, the whole sport has gotten safer & more risk adverse, less of a crazy adventure. (Except for super high speed parachutes.) Lots of desirable improvements, even if the older jumpers shake their heads and think the newbies are a bunch of wusses.

Flying with more than origianlly certified is still common as long as the weight and the CofG are OK. I don't know if it's actually a grey area -- Basically DZ's believe that who cares if a widebody C-182 only took 4 people in standard passenger configuration with seats & interior, if the weight & balance can be worked out and you have the seatbelts installed, 5 + pilot can work fine. And Transport inspections never have an issue with that.

There were a lot more crashes of piston twins back in the day when aircraft like a Beech 18 or even Lodestar were 'big' skydiving planes. Things have been better in recent decades with turbines, but it has been slow progress. Twin Otters and King Airs have crashed after having a problem with an engine. It's still the way to kill a bunch of skydivers all at once. While I have seen turbine pilots for skydivers head off to type training at Flight Safety style companies at the dropzone's (and maybe insurer's) request, there are times when skydivers still wonder if their pilots are all that well trained and current on emergency procedures.

So an accident like this one does scare us skydivers.

As for the Hawaii accident, while there has been some talk among skydivers about the prior repairs to the aircraft tail, generally more discussion has been more about a possible engine failure. But I haven't heard many facts so don't know what the conclusions will be.
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Re: Hawaii Twin Skydive Accident, 11 dead.

Post by Heliian » Thu Jun 27, 2019 12:32 pm

They should make g recorders mandatory for jump aircraft. Constant exceedance of negative and positive g limits will make an aircraft fail.

There is always pressure to get as many jumpers in a day.
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Re: Hawaii Twin Skydive Accident, 11 dead.

Post by Diadem » Thu Jun 27, 2019 3:14 pm

bodyflyer2 wrote:
Thu Jun 27, 2019 9:17 am
...generally more discussion has been more about a possible engine failure.
From another article: "Witnesses said they saw the plane spin twice up in the air and that it never gained enough altitude for those on board to safely parachute out before nose-diving into the ground." That sounds a lot like a VMC roll to me.
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Re: Hawaii Twin Skydive Accident, 11 dead.

Post by CpnCrunch » Thu Jun 27, 2019 5:30 pm

Diadem wrote:
Thu Jun 27, 2019 3:14 pm
bodyflyer2 wrote:
Thu Jun 27, 2019 9:17 am
...generally more discussion has been more about a possible engine failure.
From another article: "Witnesses said they saw the plane spin twice up in the air and that it never gained enough altitude for those on board to safely parachute out before nose-diving into the ground." That sounds a lot like a VMC roll to me.
Or just a plain old stall->spin, like the previous accident in the same plane.
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Re: Hawaii Twin Skydive Accident, 11 dead.

Post by pelmet » Thu Jun 27, 2019 5:49 pm

Do you have a link to the earlier report?
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Re: Hawaii Twin Skydive Accident, 11 dead.

Post by bodyflyer2 » Fri Jun 28, 2019 7:42 am

Link to accident report where the same aircraft lost one horizontal tail unit:
https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/Repor ... l&IType=LA

Photo from a skydiving source:
2117566137_ScreenShot2019-06-22at1_41_27PM.png.e0b8facefce748e0bfe395c3469cbee6.png
2117566137_ScreenShot2019-06-22at1_41_27PM.png.e0b8facefce748e0bfe395c3469cbee6.png (845.07 KiB) Viewed 1428 times
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Re: Hawaii Twin Skydive Accident, 11 dead.

Post by pelmet » Fri Jun 28, 2019 8:08 am

Here is a link to the docket. Our TSB should consider having this docket thing as well. I wonder if they will do something like that....

https://dms.ntsb.gov/pubdms/search/hitl ... BD0C42B7EA


Here is a link about the accident in Hawaii....
http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2018/03/b ... urred.html
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Re: Hawaii Twin Skydive Accident, 11 dead.

Post by pelmet » Fri Jun 28, 2019 8:20 am

CpnCrunch wrote:
Thu Jun 27, 2019 5:30 pm
Diadem wrote:
Thu Jun 27, 2019 3:14 pm
bodyflyer2 wrote:
Thu Jun 27, 2019 9:17 am
...generally more discussion has been more about a possible engine failure.
From another article: "Witnesses said they saw the plane spin twice up in the air and that it never gained enough altitude for those on board to safely parachute out before nose-diving into the ground." That sounds a lot like a VMC roll to me.
Or just a plain old stall->spin, like the previous accident in the same plane.

I was in two accidental stalls during skydiving ops. Skydivers climbing out of the aircraft but still holding on to be in position for the dive can create a lot of drag. In the first incident, I did not monitor my airspeed close enough and ended up feeling a buffet(stall warning was not working as it was your typical junky skydive plane). I can't remember now what I was looking at but probably, the skydivers themselves exiting the aircraft.


In the second case, it was a formation flight and I was the chase aircraft flying quite close to the lead. 100% of my concentration was on looking at the lead aircraft to maintain my space. The lead aircraft got quite slow but he had a stol kit while my aircraft did not(C180/182). Therefore I ended up stalling and suddenly dropping away with the skydivers still on hanging on to the aircraft. It was strange at first because I saw the othe aircraft going up but quickly realized I was going down. Wings were still level and I was able to maintain control and continue on for a few seconds longer so the skydivers on my aircraft could still complete be able to hook up with the ones from the other aircraft. No operable artificial stall warning once again.
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Re: Hawaii Twin Skydive Accident, 11 dead.

Post by Old fella » Sat Jun 29, 2019 7:17 am

pelmet wrote:
Fri Jun 28, 2019 8:20 am
CpnCrunch wrote:
Thu Jun 27, 2019 5:30 pm
Diadem wrote:
Thu Jun 27, 2019 3:14 pm

From another article: "Witnesses said they saw the plane spin twice up in the air and that it never gained enough altitude for those on board to safely parachute out before nose-diving into the ground." That sounds a lot like a VMC roll to me.
Or just a plain old stall->spin, like the previous accident in the same plane.

I was in two accidental stalls during skydiving ops. Skydivers climbing out of the aircraft but still holding on to be in position for the dive can create a lot of drag. In the first incident, I did not monitor my airspeed close enough and ended up feeling a buffet(stall warning was not working as it was your typical junky skydive plane). I can't remember now what I was looking at but probably, the skydivers themselves exiting the aircraft.


In the second case, it was a formation flight and I was the chase aircraft flying quite close to the lead. 100% of my concentration was on looking at the lead aircraft to maintain my space. The lead aircraft got quite slow but he had a stol kit while my aircraft did not(C180/182). Therefore I ended up stalling and suddenly dropping away with the skydivers still on hanging on to the aircraft. It was strange at first because I saw the othe aircraft going up but quickly realized I was going down. Wings were still level and I was able to maintain control and continue on for a few seconds longer so the skydivers on my aircraft could still complete be able to hook up with the ones from the other aircraft. No operable artificial stall warning once again.
Having time on type A90, there has definitely to be C of G issues with that many 11-13 skydivers permitted in this small airframe, throw in overweight conditions man that is asking for trouble which happened first time around with this aircraft- stall/spin , horizontal stabilizer right side was torn off. To me this type of activity is by definition a very unsafe operation. Just my view point.
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Re: Hawaii Twin Skydive Accident, 11 dead.

Post by pelmet » Sat Jun 29, 2019 7:31 am

I remember in the C180 and 182, the skydivers would lean forward for the takeoff. Supposedly, to help with the CG. I have also jumped out of quite a few different aircraft types, including several large ones out the back ramp. I think there can be a tendency for the jumpers to congregate at the back leading to a very aft CG.

If you want to see what can happen, watch this video.....Trust me, you'll find it interesting.

https://youtu.be/EFyyLbD-Y7o
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Re: Hawaii Twin Skydive Accident, 11 dead.

Post by Old fella » Sat Jun 29, 2019 1:00 pm

pelmet wrote:
Sat Jun 29, 2019 7:31 am
I remember in the C180 and 182, the skydivers would lean forward for the takeoff. Supposedly, to help with the CG. I have also jumped out of quite a few different aircraft types, including several large ones out the back ramp. I think there can be a tendency for the jumpers to congregate at the back leading to a very aft CG.

If you want to see what can happen, watch this video.....Trust me, you'll find it interesting.

https://youtu.be/EFyyLbD-Y7o
I trust you...... interesting indeed, couple of revolutions in the spin. Vertical nose down on the recovery, which I assume did have a positive outcome.
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Re: Hawaii Twin Skydive Accident, 11 dead.

Post by pelmet » Sat Jun 29, 2019 3:01 pm

Old fella wrote:
Sat Jun 29, 2019 1:00 pm
pelmet wrote:
Sat Jun 29, 2019 7:31 am
I remember in the C180 and 182, the skydivers would lean forward for the takeoff. Supposedly, to help with the CG. I have also jumped out of quite a few different aircraft types, including several large ones out the back ramp. I think there can be a tendency for the jumpers to congregate at the back leading to a very aft CG.

If you want to see what can happen, watch this video.....Trust me, you'll find it interesting.

https://youtu.be/EFyyLbD-Y7o
I trust you...... interesting indeed, couple of revolutions in the spin. Vertical nose down on the recovery, which I assume did have a positive outcome.
Full nose down trim was said to have been selected at the time of departure from controlled flight.
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Re: Hawaii Twin Skydive Accident, 11 dead.

Post by Old fella » Sat Jun 29, 2019 5:51 pm

pelmet wrote:
Sat Jun 29, 2019 3:01 pm
Old fella wrote:
Sat Jun 29, 2019 1:00 pm
pelmet wrote:
Sat Jun 29, 2019 7:31 am
I remember in the C180 and 182, the skydivers would lean forward for the takeoff. Supposedly, to help with the CG. I have also jumped out of quite a few different aircraft types, including several large ones out the back ramp. I think there can be a tendency for the jumpers to congregate at the back leading to a very aft CG.

If you want to see what can happen, watch this video.....Trust me, you'll find it interesting.

https://youtu.be/EFyyLbD-Y7o
I trust you...... interesting indeed, couple of revolutions in the spin. Vertical nose down on the recovery, which I assume did have a positive outcome.
Full nose down trim was said to have been selected at the time of departure from controlled flight.
And a change of skivvies when crew got it on the ground...........
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Re: Hawaii Twin Skydive Accident, 11 dead.

Post by W5 » Sun Jul 14, 2019 1:29 pm

List of the worst skydiving aircraft accidents

https://news.aviation-safety.net/2019/0 ... LZHBw4PxgU

Summarizing, of all eleven accidents killing 10+ occupants, five occurred as a result of an engine failure on takeoff.
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