Another Norseman...gone

Topics related to accidents, incidents & over due aircraft should be placed in this forum.

Moderators: lilfssister, North Shore, ahramin, sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako

DHC2eater
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 109
Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2010 11:02 am

Re: Another Norseman...gone

Post by DHC2eater »

:smt014 Let me get it right..... approach behind the power curve.....lots of power nose up.... ...... transition to in front of the power curve... stuff the nose over more power....

Doesn’t sound like a stabilized GW approach to me....

Might work for aerobatics or crop spraying or something I guess....

When I hear shit like this it makes it more clear why there are a rash of accidents taking place right now!!!

Eater
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
PilotDAR
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 3274
Joined: Sun Sep 30, 2012 6:46 pm
Location: Near CNJ4 Orillia, Ontario

Re: Another Norseman...gone

Post by PilotDAR »

Yeah... It was the "transition" part which got me.

The whole point of a glassy water approach is to definitely not transition anything, until you contact the water under control, then you can transition to staying on the water by removing power, and not bouncing. Otherwise, if, during the glassy water approach, you can't tell when you're going to touch, you wouldn't know when to transition anything about the approach!
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
rookiepilot
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1907
Joined: Sat Apr 01, 2017 3:50 pm

Re: Another Norseman...gone

Post by rookiepilot »

Sounds like when Waze instructs me, "stay to the left then stay to the right"
---------- ADS -----------
 
C.W.E.
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1262
Joined: Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:22 pm

Re: Another Norseman...gone

Post by C.W.E. »

Sometimes it just gets so bizarre in the discussions it is frightening.

Glassy water landings done correctly are very safe and easy.

Done wrong they can be deadly.

Where do some of these ideas come from?
---------- ADS -----------
 
goldeneagle
Rank 8
Rank 8
Posts: 767
Joined: Mon Jan 02, 2006 3:28 pm

Re: Another Norseman...gone

Post by goldeneagle »

corethatthermal wrote: Tue Jul 16, 2019 8:06 am Has anyone in the float world tried backside power approaches to a glassy then transition to front side approach by adding power and be immediately onto the glassy approach profile for your A/C ?
Have you ever flown a floatplane ?
---------- ADS -----------
 
corethatthermal
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 391
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 7:27 pm

Re: Another Norseman...gone

Post by corethatthermal »

For those who are ignorant , in glassy water conditions, a normal or steep approach is flown UNTIL the lake or pond or piss hole is "made" ( for me made means you have made it to the point that you are on speed and at an altitude and position to immediately transition to a glassy water approach and complete a successful landing , given the lake size etc. ) For a smallish round lake even this approach procedure can lead to excessive distance used to land due to the need to set up for a glassy water before an altitude above water that you CANNOT judge.
I have done MANY glassy water landings and taught many as well ( difficult to teach when it is not glassy )
IF one does a backside approach ( no worries mate, it is calm as hell so no concerns with wind shear induced stall ) you have a lower approach speed at a steeper profile to position yourself for the smaller lake .
You would need to add power to bring yourself to the front side of the power curve to execute the approach but i believe it can be done quite successfully with practice . This approach would alleviate concerns with limited space and make a better pilot out of you as well! This approach, of course, would only be done for a small landing area with poor peripheral clues . It is a matter of "tools in the toolbox"

A good AME , as an example, has a many good tools to do the job, some are modified for specific jobs . I have met marginal "AME s " who have a "handi-man" or a "woman's" toolbox. Such a disgrace to the industry!!

I am NOT advocating every pilot push the A/C to the extremes! The airline wannabees are taught to get the job done NOTHING more . The career bush pilot does his/her flying with a high level of safety BUT has an ace up the sleeve ( and practices it ) to do/ complete flights that are " quite marginal" and will do it successfully without fail for decades.
I am NOT advocating backside approaches to a transition to glassy water approaches ! I am saying this : I am sure it can be done and i am asking if anyone is doing it with beneficial results for their operation .
---------- ADS -----------
 
Big Pistons Forever
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 5217
Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2004 7:17 pm
Location: West Coast

Re: Another Norseman...gone

Post by Big Pistons Forever »

/\ Please don’t try this, it is not a good idea.
---------- ADS -----------
 
corethatthermal
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 391
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 7:27 pm

Re: Another Norseman...gone

Post by corethatthermal »

dh2 EATER, A Glassy water approach to a smaller landing body CANNOT be a stabilized approach Because the initial approach may be stabilized BUT the transition is unstabilizing, THEN the final approach MUST be ( more or less lol ) perfectly stabilized to accomplish the procedure. You must unstabilize the initial approach in order to enter into the new approach for glassy water DUH !!! BOY some folks are still in school even when they are on the job !!!
---------- ADS -----------
 
C.W.E.
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1262
Joined: Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:22 pm

Re: Another Norseman...gone

Post by C.W.E. »

You would need to add power to bring yourself to the front side of the power curve to execute the approach but i believe it can be done quite successfully with practice . This approach would alleviate concerns with limited space and make a better pilot out of you as well! This approach, of course, would only be done for a small landing area with poor peripheral clues . It is a matter of "tools in the toolbox"
This thread is becoming quite concerning in that there is the danger that some pilots will deviate from proper glassy water flying procedures which can lead to a very serious accident.

The above quote is really troubling for many reasons in my opinion for instance I am having a problem understanding this part.

This approach, of course, would only be done for a small landing area with poor peripheral clues

i have never seen such a situation.

Can you describe this a bit more and let us know where you ran into such a location?
---------- ADS -----------
 
beechnut
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 102
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2007 10:08 pm
Location: b.c.

Re: Another Norseman...gone

Post by beechnut »

Norseman do not go into ponds
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
PilotDAR
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 3274
Joined: Sun Sep 30, 2012 6:46 pm
Location: Near CNJ4 Orillia, Ontario

Re: Another Norseman...gone

Post by PilotDAR »

IF one does a backside approach ( no worries mate, it is calm as hell so no concerns with wind shear induced stall ) you have a lower approach speed at a steeper profile to position yourself for the smaller lake .
If you're flying a back side of the power curve approach, and a steeper approach, you've put yourself in the very worst possible combination for a safe landing, let alone on glassy water. This sounds like a home made procedure, and a poorly thought out one at that! On the back side, you're needing lots of power to maintain flight at all. Having a shallow approach means that you shouldn't need more power to flare to touch down, you can just chop the power upon the touch. If you have a steep approach, you will need to arrest the rate of descent to touch without crashing - that will need lots of power, hopefully you have the additional power you're going to need! And that's for a landing for which you can judge the surface well.

So, my advice is that pilots fly in accordance with established procedures. Hopefully training is being down to established procedures! If flying this way makes me ignorant of other people's home made procedures, I'm happy about that - I don't need to be a witness to test flying glassy water, or behind the power curve landings.
I have met marginal "AME s " who have a "handi-man" or a "woman's" toolbox. Such a disgrace to the industry!!
Happily, I've known some really great AME's who had "women's" toolboxes - they were women.
seeing that Canadians are becoming such . LOL :D
Well, I can't speak for other Canadians, but this Canadian spent three months in hospital after being right seat for a water landing which suddenly went wrong. So I don't mind being thought of as a suck about avoiding scary, home made procedures, particularly on the water. For those new pilots who are just beginning to think for themselves, I want them to think that at least some people's home made ideas are not worth the risk.
---------- ADS -----------
 
DHC2eater
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 109
Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2010 11:02 am

Re: Another Norseman...gone

Post by DHC2eater »

The suggested procedure suggested by "corethatthermal" .............plain and simple......don't do it!

Eater
---------- ADS -----------
 
corethatthermal
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 391
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 7:27 pm

Re: Another Norseman...gone

Post by corethatthermal »

Of course, i am NOT suggesting it be done . I am asking IF anyone does it ! One can do a simulated one AT ALTITUDE though!
---------- ADS -----------
 
corethatthermal
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 391
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 7:27 pm

Re: Another Norseman...gone

Post by corethatthermal »

i have never seen such a situation.

Can you describe this a bit more and let us know where you ran into such a location?
The worst one I can remember was trying to land a Twin Otter on a perfectly circular lake. At that point I was kind of new on the machine and found the CAP floats required an approach attitude I wasn't wholly familiar with. I took three tries at this lake. Its perfectly circular shape meant no shoreline in my peripheral vision and the only thing I could see after passing over the beach was the camp on the opposite shore coming up fast.
---------- ADS -----------
 
mmm..bacon
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 195
Joined: Sat Aug 30, 2014 7:19 pm

Re: Another Norseman...gone

Post by mmm..bacon »

I always wanted to fly a Norseman, despite my peers asking why the heck I wanted to do that. I figured that once I'd learned my craft well enough on 180/185/-2/-3/-3T, then someone would see fit to let me touch a Noorduyn. Sadly, my career has moved past that point now, but I'd like to think that the 2200 on floats before I stopped logging would at least get me looked at to sit in one if I wanted to go back to the bush.

With that said, [and, 'There but for the grace of God go I'] I gots to ask how the hell do you f**k up a glassy water landing at Big Sand? The lake's 50 miles long....
Or is this a case of too little experience in the seat? Gotta say I witnessed some sporty flying from the float operators in YTH in my days there...
---------- ADS -----------
 
Everything has an end, except a sausage, which has two!
Meatservo
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2473
Joined: Wed Mar 16, 2005 11:07 pm
Location: Negative sequencial vortex

Re: Another Norseman...gone

Post by Meatservo »

corethatthermal wrote: Tue Jul 16, 2019 8:16 pm I am sure it can be done and i am asking if anyone is doing it with beneficial results for their operation . Perhaps I should be asking on an AMERICAN site, seeing that Canadians are becoming such .. LOL :D

Usually on this site, some moron eventually will come around and crash the conversation, get mad, start calling people "..." or whatever, and then there's another thread ruined.

The speed at which this happened this time is breathtaking. Another thing that is breathtaking is the blistering stupidity of the manoeuvre being proposed.

Some guys are embarrassed to be participating in this inane discussion, so they are pretending not to know what you are talking about. I know what you're talking about. You're talking about getting real slow, with your nose way up in the air and lots of power, and sneaking up on the shoreline as though you were trying to land on a gravel-bar or beach. You figure this is a good way to get as low as possible before "transitioning" somehow to your stable, glassy-water configuration just as you get out over the water.

What you're not taking into account is the fact that it's just as easy to get as low as possible crossing the shoreline if you're already configured for a glassy-water landing. There is absolutely no point to the "back side of the power curve" part. Why would you ever do that. What point is there to doing the easy part of the landing approach as slow as you can if you're just going to speed up anyway?

Plus, this configuration change you're proposing is to come in with lots of power, wait till you can't see the water, and then lower the nose, add a whole bunch MORE power to stop the plane from sinking till the plane speeds up, then backing off on the power again presumably, all at an extremely low altitude over a surface you can't see.

This has got to be one of the stupidest fucking things I've ever heard. PLEASE DO go to an American site. I find people who start slinging around Americanisms like "cuck" and "snowflake" have already lost the debate and just looking to trash the place before they leave. So please, leave. You're right, you might fit in better on an American site. Preferably one for private pilots, where you might have more success promulgating your stupid ideas.
---------- ADS -----------
 
If I'd known I was going to live this long, I'd have taken better care of myself
mmm..bacon
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 195
Joined: Sat Aug 30, 2014 7:19 pm

Re: Another Norseman...gone

Post by mmm..bacon »

Thus sayeth 'The Meat'!
Image
---------- ADS -----------
 
Everything has an end, except a sausage, which has two!
ruddersup?
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 256
Joined: Wed Apr 09, 2008 7:10 pm

Re: Another Norseman...gone

Post by ruddersup? »

Gentlemen,
Corethatthermal has twigged my memory. We were in this discussion years back and I said there was a way to make the small round glassy water lake more manageable. There is no time to set up a normal glassy water landing. Can't do the 250-300ft/min decent. Make a low pass, not 5 ft low but about 15 ft and then go around. The pass will get air movement and you should get a slight ripple on the water to land. Still use all your senses and, of course, attitude is vital.
---------- ADS -----------
 
shimmydampner
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1672
Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2004 3:59 pm

Re: Another Norseman...gone

Post by shimmydampner »

I think corethatthermal is the reincarnation of aeroancasuperchief who, from what I could gather was an AME with a private license.
---------- ADS -----------
 
DHC2eater
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 109
Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2010 11:02 am

Re: Another Norseman...gone

Post by DHC2eater »

ruddersup? wrote: Wed Jul 17, 2019 4:46 pm Gentlemen,
Corethatthermal has twigged my memory. We were in this discussion years back and I said there was a way to make the small round glassy water lake more manageable. There is no time to set up a normal glassy water landing. Can't do the 250-300ft/min decent. Make a low pass, not 5 ft low but about 15 ft and then go around. The pass will get air movement and you should get a slight ripple on the water to land. Still use all your senses and, of course, attitude is vital.
Holy Shit......Like Forest Gump's mother said....'Stupid is what stupid does'

If the landing surface is that small/challenging then maybe one shouldn't be there!

45 years in the industry and I've never heard of this kind of shit......what happened to throwing out a life jacket to make ripples!!,😖😖 tongue in Cheek!

Eater
---------- ADS -----------
 
Post Reply

Return to “Accidents, Incidents & Overdue Aircraft”