How long for hands on throttle after takeoff

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pelmet
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How long for hands on throttle after takeoff

Post by pelmet »

I can see how this could happen accidentally. How long do you keep your hand on the throttles in an aircraft like this after takeoff? Any company policy?

C-GYSR, a Beech B200 operated by Keewatin Air LP, was conducting flight Blizzard 208 from
Thompson (CYTH), MB to Winnipeg/James Armstrong Richardson Intl (CYWG), MB. Shortly after
rotation on takeoff, the aircraft experience a power roll back on the left hand engine (Pratt &
Whitney Canada PT6A-42). The flight crew continued the climb and declared an emergency. As the
flight crew was assessing the situation, it was determined that the left-hand power lever had moved
back from the takeoff power position. The flight crew advanced the power lever and engine power
was restored. The flight crew consulted with company flight operations, cancelled the emergency,
and continued to CYWG; where the aircraft landed safely
.
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J31
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Re: How long for hands on throttle after takeoff

Post by J31 »

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Re: How long for hands on throttle after takeoff

Post by PilotDAR »

I admit it, this happened to me last week flying a Caravan, "Hmmm... not climbing as well as I should be... Ah, the power lever crept back a bit" - power restored, friction reset, no problem. The turbine is a little more subtle rolling itself back than a piston, though I would hope that a pilot would diagnose the power problem inside the cockpit first, before calling on the radio, or worse, declaring an emergency. I guess that ATC should be trained to ask, upon receiving an emergency call for a power loss: "Have you tried pushing the black knob forward?".

Flying turbines, I don't tend to leave my hand on the power lever, simply for concern that if I hit turbulence and bump, I could accidentally over torque it.
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Re: How long for hands on throttle after takeoff

Post by jspitfire »

All SOPs for an engine failure that I’ve seen have “max power” as the first step. In this case that step should have solved their problem rather quickly
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Re: How long for hands on throttle after takeoff

Post by Eric Janson »

jspitfire wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 10:03 am
All SOPs for an engine failure that I’ve seen have “max power” as the first step. In this case that step should have solved their problem rather quickly
Not true for all aircraft or for all situations.

With the airbus if we are doing a reduced thrust take-off (FLEX) then there is no requirement to set Max thrust in the event of an engine failure. It is an option to do so but the books caution that doing this may lead to control problems as you will suddenly need more rudder.

Setting Max thrust when doing a de-rated (DXX) take-off is prohibited below F speed due to Vmca issues. I've never worked for anyone using this method for setting thrust.

In cruise the procedure is to set the Max Continuous thrust - the next higher thrust setting.

In cruise going to the next higher power setting is a good place to start - you can always increase if required. Most Engines have limits on how long you are allowed to operate at Max Power.
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Re: How long for hands on throttle after takeoff

Post by co-joe »

Keeping one hand on the thrust levers and one on the control column below 10 000' seems to be expected of the PF unless actively using that hand to manipulate the MCP here.

I do remember having a throttle roll back on me on the 1900, and the prop sync masked it quite well. The first indication I had was the VS pittering off from 2000 '/min to 500..why aren't we climbing?...oh. F#$k.
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digits_
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Re: How long for hands on throttle after takeoff

Post by digits_ »

All multi crew airplanes I have flown have had SOPs where your hands are off the throttles between V1 and reduction to climb thrust, usually around 400 ft.

I have 2 prop levers move back simultaneously during a take off roll. That was an interesting day.
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DanWEC
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Re: How long for hands on throttle after takeoff

Post by DanWEC »

Throttle movement in a 30 year old cable actuated B200? Inconceivable!
No matter how diligent, cumbersome and regressive those precious SOP's are, is it possible that they can't be a substitute for common sense? What a travesty. Too bad, it must be impossible to prevent this sort of thing with training and vetting, followed by experience.

Bottom line is you're taught to keep your hand on the throttle since hour 1. If you can't remember such basic stuff stick to drones.
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Re: How long for hands on throttle after takeoff

Post by digits_ »

DanWEC wrote:
Mon Dec 30, 2019 7:42 pm
Throttle movement in a 30 year old cable actuated B200? Inconceivable!
No matter how diligent, cumbersome and regressive those precious SOP's are, is it possible that they can't be a substitute for common sense? What a travesty. Too bad, it must be impossible to prevent this sort of thing with training and vetting, followed by experience.

Bottom line is you're taught to keep your hand on the throttle since hour 1. If you can't remember such basic stuff stick to drones.
Hands off or on throttles is an extremely important difference. That should be defined in the SOPs. It is also something that happens every flight. That is not the time to ignore or modify SOPs.

If throttles move by themselves, something is either not set up properly or something is wrong with the plane.

Some other people will undoubtedly chime in, but in multi eninge multi crew airplanes, I'm quite confident hands OFF throttle after V1 is the norm...
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DanWEC
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Re: How long for hands on throttle after takeoff

Post by DanWEC »

digits_ wrote:
Mon Dec 30, 2019 7:59 pm
Some other people will undoubtedly chime in, but in multi eninge multi crew airplanes, I'm quite confident hands OFF throttle after V1 is the norm...
I've never seen a hands off throttle policy personally, are there companies with manual throttles that specify that?
Especially in something like a B200 I'd have my hands on the throttle till about 2k'
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Last edited by DanWEC on Mon Dec 30, 2019 8:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

AuxBatOn
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Re: How long for hands on throttle after takeoff

Post by AuxBatOn »

digits_ wrote:
Mon Dec 30, 2019 7:59 pm
DanWEC wrote:
Mon Dec 30, 2019 7:42 pm
Throttle movement in a 30 year old cable actuated B200? Inconceivable!
No matter how diligent, cumbersome and regressive those precious SOP's are, is it possible that they can't be a substitute for common sense? What a travesty. Too bad, it must be impossible to prevent this sort of thing with training and vetting, followed by experience.

Bottom line is you're taught to keep your hand on the throttle since hour 1. If you can't remember such basic stuff stick to drones.
Hands off or on throttles is an extremely important difference. That should be defined in the SOPs. It is also something that happens every flight. That is not the time to ignore or modify SOPs.

If throttles move by themselves, something is either not set up properly or something is wrong with the plane.

Some other people will undoubtedly chime in, but in multi eninge multi crew airplanes, I'm quite confident hands OFF throttle after V1 is the norm...
You seriously need someone to tell you when to have and not to have a hand on the throttle(s)? Where has airmanship gone? 😢
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digits_
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Re: How long for hands on throttle after takeoff

Post by digits_ »

AuxBatOn wrote:
Mon Dec 30, 2019 8:13 pm
digits_ wrote:
Mon Dec 30, 2019 7:59 pm
DanWEC wrote:
Mon Dec 30, 2019 7:42 pm
Throttle movement in a 30 year old cable actuated B200? Inconceivable!
No matter how diligent, cumbersome and regressive those precious SOP's are, is it possible that they can't be a substitute for common sense? What a travesty. Too bad, it must be impossible to prevent this sort of thing with training and vetting, followed by experience.

Bottom line is you're taught to keep your hand on the throttle since hour 1. If you can't remember such basic stuff stick to drones.
Hands off or on throttles is an extremely important difference. That should be defined in the SOPs. It is also something that happens every flight. That is not the time to ignore or modify SOPs.

If throttles move by themselves, something is either not set up properly or something is wrong with the plane.

Some other people will undoubtedly chime in, but in multi eninge multi crew airplanes, I'm quite confident hands OFF throttle after V1 is the norm...
You seriously need someone to tell you when to have and not to have a hand on the throttle(s)? Where has airmanship gone? 😢
No, nobody has to tell me. But if the SOPs specify it, I will follow it and you should too. You might think you know better, but by moving your hands to where they shouldn't be -during normal ops- you are creating a way more dangerous situation. If something happens at V1, you want to spot it quickly. If your crewmember makes it a habit to not follow SOPs at such moments, it can become much harder to detect when something is "off".

The whole point of this, is that you do not *want* to be a hero in an engine failure after v1 scenario and try to abort when you shouldn't. You want to get airborne and avoid going off the end of the runway because you yanked the throttles back in a reflex when an engine fails.

Statistics seem to indicate more people have died from aborting past V1 than from going flying and losing a few percentages of power if a throttle were to move slightly.
DanWEC wrote:
Mon Dec 30, 2019 8:10 pm
digits_ wrote:
Mon Dec 30, 2019 7:59 pm
Some other people will undoubtedly chime in, but in multi eninge multi crew airplanes, I'm quite confident hands OFF throttle after V1 is the norm...
I've never seen a hands off throttle policy personally, are there companies with manual throttles that specify that?
Especially in something like a B200 I'd have my hands on the throttle till about 2k'
My previous and current employer both specify who touches the trottles at what time. That was during 704 operations with manual throttles.
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Re: How long for hands on throttle after takeoff

Post by ant_321 »

If my memory serves correct, when I flew 1900’s it was hands off at V1 but part of the pm’s responsibility to ensure the power was set/remained set properly.
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Re: How long for hands on throttle after takeoff

Post by DanWEC »

Every single multi crew op I've flown with specifies the Capt has hand on the throttle till V1, then PF after.
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Re: How long for hands on throttle after takeoff

Post by AuxBatOn »

The fact SOPs need to specify that someone in the cockpit needs to hold the throttles/power levers during takeoff/initial climb is sad. Yes, when you are close to the ground, someone should be holding the throttles/power levers. Thankfully, there is no such SOP where I work. We are trusted to do the right things.
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DanWEC
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Re: How long for hands on throttle after takeoff

Post by DanWEC »

I agree
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digits_
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Re: How long for hands on throttle after takeoff

Post by digits_ »

AuxBatOn wrote:
Mon Dec 30, 2019 8:47 pm
The fact SOPs need to specify that someone in the cockpit needs to hold the throttles/power levers during takeoff/initial climb is sad. Yes, when you are close to the ground, someone should be holding the throttles/power levers. Thankfully, there is no such SOP where I work. We are trusted to do the right things.
What kind of operation is that? Single or multicrew? 703/704/705/something else?
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Re: How long for hands on throttle after takeoff

Post by tbaylx »

Capt takes his off at V1, PF should put his on at gear up and keep it there till a comfortable altitude. Personally I use 10 000'. Same thing on descent
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Re: How long for hands on throttle after takeoff

Post by AuxBatOn »

digits_ wrote:
Mon Dec 30, 2019 8:52 pm
AuxBatOn wrote:
Mon Dec 30, 2019 8:47 pm
The fact SOPs need to specify that someone in the cockpit needs to hold the throttles/power levers during takeoff/initial climb is sad. Yes, when you are close to the ground, someone should be holding the throttles/power levers. Thankfully, there is no such SOP where I work. We are trusted to do the right things.
What kind of operation is that? Single or multicrew? 703/704/705/something else?
Single pilot and multi-crew. Military.
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Re: How long for hands on throttle after takeoff

Post by altiplano »

digits_ wrote:
Mon Dec 30, 2019 7:59 pm
If throttles move by themselves, something is either not set up properly or something is wrong with the plane.
I recall the Beech 200s I flew had frictions that need to be set/confirmed set before takeoff or the levers can shift or roll back.

And I agree, hands off after V1. Two hands for rotation has been the usual SOP on the multi engine aircraft I've flown.
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Re: How long for hands on throttle after takeoff

Post by altiplano »

AuxBatOn is really looking forward to the new Top Gun...

You really can't compare your super pilot military instincts and regulation interpretation skills for your 200 hours a year, with us mortal civilian pilots grinding it out 800 or 1000 hours a year day in and day out through every type of operation from scab bag runs with often nil support and poor training to established Mainline Airlines with a maze of information and manager bulletins around every corner...

But wherever we are we mortal civilian pilots are just doin or best to do it the way we're trained because if we don't it's on us... pilot error... Military = no liability. I guarantee every Airline or at least 99% are hand off the throttle at V1 and if you think that's sad, well I guess that you just don't get how it is being a mortal civilian line pilot...
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Re: How long for hands on throttle after takeoff

Post by SAR_YQQ »

AuxBat doesn’t speak for military SOPs when it comes to the multi-engine, multi crew concept.

We most certainly have SOPs as to who and when hands are on power levers, thrust levers etc. Flying the 707 (E-3) with the USAF had very specific SOPs as to V1 calls, reject criteria and the exact positioning of each pilots hands.
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Re: How long for hands on throttle after takeoff

Post by AuxBatOn »

Sure, have SOPs for who is responsible for throttles at any given time. That CRM. But telling a crew “you need to have hands on throttles below 10,000 ft” is excessive.
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Re: How long for hands on throttle after takeoff

Post by Gannet167 »

Single pilot pilot high performance flying cannot be compared to a true multi engine crew cockpit where v1 speeds are critical, thrust has to be set carefully and accurately and there's 2 people working together. Very different from the hornet. I’ve flown several military multi engine crew aircraft and been jump seat in several others. They ALL have specific SOP for when PF removes hands from thrust levers.

There is a very good reason for this, so as to not mistakenly reject after V1. I've seen some very talented and experienced single pilot high performance guys, after switching over to a multi engine plane, reject after V1, getting confused about what to do at V1. Luckily they had runway to get stopped and the aircraft survived. Fuze plugs, tires and egos did not survive. There's a reason this SOP is standard in the multi engine world. Hands on the thrust levers means we're spring loaded to reject and pull them back to idle and possibly reverse. After V1, hands are off the thrust levers, on the yoke and we're going flying regardless.

This gets further complicated by the requirement for the PM to fine tune power in a plane without auto thrust. Without fadec, a 1/4 inch on the thrust lever can mean the difference between not having sufficient thrust set to climb if you lose an engine, or, over temping multi million dollar engine(s). In addition, both crew have to know what each is doing and will do. PF (or capt, depending on SOP) moving hand off thrust lever is a confirmation that were are now not going to reject. It also let's the PM know that the PF will react appropriately if an engine fails.

It's a little more complex than a fully fadec style power lever that you simply firewall for mil power or burners and just giver. The decision speed is extremely critical as is fine tuning specific thrust numbers.

Flying an aircraft with auto thrust, as most modern multi engine aircraft do, you aren't going to keep your hands on the throttles after V1. There's no point, you're not rejecting. The AT is goi g to set the desired takeoff thrust very accurately and prevent over temp or over speed. If anything, you'll increase to Max Continuous (depending on the type) if you lose an engine, but in many planes you won't do this immediately. Otherwise, there's no need to have your hand there until thrust reduction altitude or top of climb (type dependent). You're also not going to hold auto throttles for the whole 8 hour flight. Why would you? On an AirBus they don't even move. Most SOP are hands on below 1000 agl on approach.

There are some military guys who will have their hand on the thrust lever/Hotas for the entire flight. It may seem weird to them to take your hand off, but this is the norm in most multi engine cockpits because it's safer during the takeoff and having your hand there serves no purpose until just before landing.
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Re: How long for hands on throttle after takeoff

Post by Gannet167 »

Single pilot pilot high performance flying cannot be compared to a true multi engine crew cockpit where v1 speeds are critical, thrust has to be set carefully and accurately and there's 2 people working together. Very different from the hornet. I’ve flown several military multi engine crew aircraft and been jump seat in several others. They ALL have specific SOP for when PF removes hands from thrust levers.

There is a very good reason for this, so as to not mistakenly reject after V1. I've seen some very talented and experienced single pilot high performance guys, after switching over to a multi engine plane, reject after V1, getting confused about what to do at V1. Luckily they had runway to get stopped and the aircraft survived. Fuze plugs, tires and egos did not survive. There's a reason this SOP is standard in the multi engine world. Hands on the thrust levers means we're spring loaded to reject and pull them back to idle and possibly reverse. After V1, hands are off the thrust levers, on the yoke and we're going flying regardless.

This gets further complicated by the requirement for the PM to fine tune power in a plane without auto thrust. Without fadec, a 1/4 inch on the thrust lever can mean the difference between not having sufficient thrust set to climb if you lose an engine, or, over temping multi million dollar engine(s). In addition, both crew have to know what each is doing and will do. PF (or capt, depending on SOP) moving hand off thrust lever is a confirmation that were are now not going to reject. It also let's the PM know that the PF will react appropriately if an engine fails.

It's a little more complex than a fully fadec style power lever that you simply firewall for mil power or burners and just giver. The decision speed is extremely critical as is fine tuning specific thrust numbers.

Flying an aircraft with auto thrust, as most modern multi engine aircraft do, you aren't going to keep your hands on the throttles after V1. There's no point, you're not rejecting. The AT is goi g to set the desired takeoff thrust very accurately and prevent over temp or over speed. If anything, you'll increase to Max Continuous (depending on the type) if you lose an engine, but in many planes you won't do this immediately. Otherwise, there's no need to have your hand there until thrust reduction altitude or top of climb (type dependent). You're also not going to hold auto throttles for the whole 8 hour flight. Why would you? On an AirBus they don't even move. Most SOP are hands on below 1000 agl on approach.

There are some military guys who will have their hand on the thrust lever/Hotas for the entire flight. It may seem weird to them to take your hand off, but this is the norm in most multi engine cockpits because it's safer during the takeoff and having your hand there serves no purpose until just before landing.
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