How long for hands on throttle after takeoff

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Gannet167
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Re: How long for hands on throttle after takeoff

Post by Gannet167 » Tue Dec 31, 2019 2:01 am

Single pilot pilot high performance flying cannot be compared to a true multi engine crew cockpit where v1 speeds are critical, thrust has to be set carefully and accurately and there's 2 people working together. Very different from the hornet. I’ve flown several military multi engine crew aircraft and been jump seat in several others. They ALL have specific SOP for when PF removes hands from thrust levers.

There is a very good reason for this, so as to not mistakenly reject after V1. I've seen some very talented and experienced single pilot high performance guys, after switching over to a multi engine plane, reject after V1, getting confused about what to do at V1. Luckily they had runway to get stopped and the aircraft survived. Fuze plugs, tires and egos did not survive. There's a reason this SOP is standard in the multi engine world. Hands on the thrust levers means we're spring loaded to reject and pull them back to idle and possibly reverse. After V1, hands are off the thrust levers, on the yoke and we're going flying regardless.

This gets further complicated by the requirement for the PM to fine tune power in a plane without auto thrust. Without fadec, a 1/4 inch on the thrust lever can mean the difference between not having sufficient thrust set to climb if you lose an engine, or, over temping multi million dollar engine(s). In addition, both crew have to know what each is doing and will do. PF (or capt, depending on SOP) moving hand off thrust lever is a confirmation that were are now not going to reject. It also let's the PM know that the PF will react appropriately if an engine fails.

It's a little more complex than a fully fadec style power lever that you simply firewall for mil power or burners and just giver. The decision speed is extremely critical as is fine tuning specific thrust numbers.

Flying an aircraft with auto thrust, as most modern multi engine aircraft do, you aren't going to keep your hands on the throttles after V1. There's no point, you're not rejecting. The AT is goi g to set the desired takeoff thrust very accurately and prevent over temp or over speed. If anything, you'll increase to Max Continuous (depending on the type) if you lose an engine, but in many planes you won't do this immediately. Otherwise, there's no need to have your hand there until thrust reduction altitude or top of climb (type dependent). You're also not going to hold auto throttles for the whole 8 hour flight. Why would you? On an AirBus they don't even move. Most SOP are hands on below 1000 agl on approach.

There are some military guys who will have their hand on the thrust lever/Hotas for the entire flight. It may seem weird to them to take your hand off, but this is the norm in most multi engine cockpits because it's safer during the takeoff and having your hand there serves no purpose until just before landing.
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iflyforpie
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Re: How long for hands on throttle after takeoff

Post by iflyforpie » Tue Dec 31, 2019 10:14 am

Our SOPs are for PF to initiate power, PM to set it. PF keeps hands on power levers until V1, then removes them. PM sets climb power after 400 feet upon which power levers become PFs responsibility.

There’s no requirement to have your hands on the power levers after 400 feet. I’ve had a few engines roll back because of low friction or an inversion layer, but usually if you aren’t on the power levers you’re at least monitoring the instruments or your PM is and they’ll ask you to correct.

The SOPs state a specific power or temperature to target for climb power... an objective approach rather than the directive THOU SHALT ALWAYS KEEP THINE HANDS ON THY POWER LEVERS.

If an engine rolled back imitating an engine failure it would be caught when the PF initiated and then called for maximum power. I don’t know what SOPs would have them declaring an emergency before doing even the initial elements of a single engine drill.

Aviate, Navigate, Communicate... in that order, always.
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co-joe
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Re: How long for hands on throttle after takeoff

Post by co-joe » Tue Dec 31, 2019 11:15 am

iflyforpie wrote:
Tue Dec 31, 2019 10:14 am
...

Aviate, Navigate, Communicate... in that order, always.
It certainly sounds like this crew mixed the order of that rule up a bit.
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Big Pistons Forever
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Re: How long for hands on throttle after takeoff

Post by Big Pistons Forever » Tue Dec 31, 2019 12:37 pm

iflyforpie wrote:
Tue Dec 31, 2019 10:14 am
Our SOPs are for PF to initiate power, PM to set it. PF keeps hands on power levers until V1, then removes them. PM sets climb power after 400 feet upon which power levers become PFs responsibility.

There’s no requirement to have your hands on the power levers after 400 feet. I’ve had a few engines roll back because of low friction or an inversion layer, but usually if you aren’t on the power levers you’re at least monitoring the instruments or your PM is and they’ll ask you to correct.

The SOPs state a specific power or temperature to target for climb power... an objective approach rather than the directive THOU SHALT ALWAYS KEEP THINE HANDS ON THY POWER LEVERS.

If an engine rolled back imitating an engine failure it would be caught when the PF initiated and then called for maximum power. I don’t know what SOPs would have them declaring an emergency before doing even the initial elements of a single engine drill.

Aviate, Navigate, Communicate... in that order, always.
This is IMO the best post on this thread. Especially this part
If an engine rolled back imitating an engine failure it would be caught when the PF initiated and then called for maximum power.
SOP’s should be the starting point for when something abnormal occurs and I have never seen a T-Prop power loss emergency checklist that did not start with “Power” . Where the pilots hands were doesn’t change the fact that following the engine failure checklist would have instantly resolved the situation

Interestingly the last three operators I worked for all had instances where perfectly working engines were shut down after a crew completely failed to execute the memory items of the emergency checklist
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valleyboy
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Re: How long for hands on throttle after takeoff

Post by valleyboy » Tue Dec 31, 2019 9:49 pm

Thinking back over some 50 years my hands left the power levers/thrust levers at V1 or on rotation with no V speeds. It's more important to be aware than to have your hands on the levers. Where is your scan or is that becoming a lost art because of auto pilots and flight directors. It was nice in a 3 crew environment because the F/E was far more reliable but with 2 crew both pilots should be scanning. There can also be negative issues for holding power levers and you could actually retard them. If you are not watching your hand and get doing other things you should not be holding them. Brain farts out number mechanical issues, especially if you check the tension.
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iflyforpie
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Re: How long for hands on throttle after takeoff

Post by iflyforpie » Tue Dec 31, 2019 11:09 pm

Incident occurred at 4:24 in the morning local time.

I wonder where in their duty day and schedule they were? I’m assuming this was a Medevac flight.
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