Perimeter Shamattawa

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pelmet
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Re: Perimeter Shamattawa

Post by pelmet »

goingnowherefast wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 5:19 pm
The balanced field length problem was "solved" by doctoring the numbers. The rumour I heard was using the 200' clearways on both ends to turn a 3500' runway into a "3900' runway".
Have seen that done with larger turboprops as well.
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digits_
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Re: Perimeter Shamattawa

Post by digits_ »

Maynard wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 5:04 pm

-not certified for anti ice fluid De ice fluid can be applied an airborne within minutes on a res
Sounds good, doesn't work (properly).

Timing starts when you start applying. The time you save because you are close to the runway (if you don't need to deice), you lose again because of the, generally, improvised way the plane is sprayed. It is often less efficient than a spray with a proper truck. Type 4 would solve this issue completely. Type 1, sort of works in some situations. If everybody used the type 1 times as hard limits, a whole lot less flights would take off...
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Maynard
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Re: Perimeter Shamattawa

Post by Maynard »

digits_ wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 7:51 pm
Maynard wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 5:04 pm

-not certified for anti ice fluid De ice fluid can be applied an airborne within minutes on a res
Sounds good, doesn't work (properly).

Timing starts when you start applying. The time you save because you are close to the runway (if you don't need to deice), you lose again because of the, generally, improvised way the plane is sprayed. It is often less efficient than a spray with a proper truck. Type 4 would solve this issue completely. Type 1, sort of works in some situations. If everybody used the type 1 times as hard limits, a whole lot less flights would take off...
If it’s snowing and cold enough, you don’t need to spray. If it’s snowing and warm enough you need to, you have lots of time. If it’s freezing precip, you shouldn’t be there anyways. If it was costing them a large amount cancelling flights because they can’t have a longer HOT, companies would have splurged and paid to get it approved. It’s not worth it for the small amount of days/situations they’d need it.
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valleyboy
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Re: Perimeter Shamattawa

Post by valleyboy »

I'm have no idea how many here have actually experienced the metro as either a passenger or a pilot. I have been riding them for years and I must say likely the worst passenger experience one could endure and most of the issues are caused by the guy driving. I have survived landing where things are "violent" in the back. It seems that directional control is as twitchy and pilot induced worse than most tail draggers I have experienced. Once it is wrestled to a stop the taxi abuse starts and experiencing "Tokyo drift" is almost a reality. I could never understand the need for speed during a taxi, especially not 50 kts.

Unfortunately, this is the norm and not the exception. It is such a treat when, as a passenger, you actually catch a flight where the guy upfront can drive the bird and has consideration for passenger ride.

To me this incident is just a natural outcome. I'm surprised there aren't more.
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skybluetrek
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Re: Perimeter Shamattawa

Post by skybluetrek »

valleyboy wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 7:34 am
I'm have no idea how many here have actually experienced the metro as either a passenger or a pilot. I have been riding them for years and I must say likely the worst passenger experience one could endure and most of the issues are caused by the guy driving. I have survived landing where things are "violent" in the back. It seems that directional control is as twitchy and pilot induced worse than most tail draggers I have experienced. Once it is wrestled to a stop the taxi abuse starts and experiencing "Tokyo drift" is almost a reality. I could never understand the need for speed during a taxi, especially not 50 kts.

Unfortunately, this is the norm and not the exception. It is such a treat when, as a passenger, you actually catch a flight where the guy upfront can drive the bird and has consideration for passenger ride.

To me this incident is just a natural outcome. I'm surprised there aren't more.
To better understand your comment: Are you a Metro pilot as well, or just a passenger?
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digits_
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Re: Perimeter Shamattawa

Post by digits_ »

Maynard wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 4:16 am
digits_ wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 7:51 pm
Maynard wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 5:04 pm

-not certified for anti ice fluid De ice fluid can be applied an airborne within minutes on a res
Sounds good, doesn't work (properly).

Timing starts when you start applying. The time you save because you are close to the runway (if you don't need to deice), you lose again because of the, generally, improvised way the plane is sprayed. It is often less efficient than a spray with a proper truck. Type 4 would solve this issue completely. Type 1, sort of works in some situations. If everybody used the type 1 times as hard limits, a whole lot less flights would take off...
If it’s snowing and cold enough, you don’t need to spray. If it’s snowing and warm enough you need to, you have lots of time. If it’s freezing precip, you shouldn’t be there anyways. If it was costing them a large amount cancelling flights because they can’t have a longer HOT, companies would have splurged and paid to get it approved. It’s not worth it for the small amount of days/situations they’d need it.
Lot's of time with type I fluid? Not really...

I found this chart online for type I. It might be off by a couple of minutes, but it gives a good idea.

Image

I'm assuming that most northern operators have something in their COM that says you can only use the lowest value in those charts unless a tactile inspection is performed right before take off. Since the door is right in front of the prop, we'll have to use the lowest value, as a tactile inspection is not possible. Timing starts when the final (only) application of fluid starts, so right when the deice starts.

As a reminder, snowfall intensity is not determined by the metar, but by combination of temperature and visibility.

Image

With these definitions, I've rarely seen very light snow. That leaves 11 minutes in -3 and warmer, or 8 minutes between -6 and -3.

The deicing process would take at least 8 minutes with homebrewed solutions. Even a CDF can take 6 or more minutes. Then you have to start the engines, can easily take another 3 minutes on a metro. 1 minute for an engine start, 1 minute to let the amps come down, 1 minute for the other one. With a GPU you'll save some time for the amps, but you'll lose it again because the GPU has to be disconnected. So you'll be right at the 11 minute mark before you even start moving. Time to shut down and spray again...

What happens in reality? Pilots look outside, judge the wing is ok, and leave. They are breaking procedures. Is it unsafe? You can debate that. In lots of conditions the holdovertimes are pretty generous. If pilot would stick to their company procedures to the letter, way more flights would get cancelled.

This is not just aimed at perimeter by the way, pretty sure the majority of northern operators runs into issues like this. But if we compare this to the king air, you can (and it happens) walk outside right before line up, because the door is behind the engines, and do the actual inspection which gives you extra time.
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bobcaygeon
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Re: Perimeter Shamattawa

Post by bobcaygeon »

Type 4 approval (like a Dash 8, 1900, ATR) would be nice but please where up north is Type 4 even available????? Ummmmm. Nowhere :roll:

Good luck getting a truck up north that can do it and maintain the quality and environmental control needed for Type 4 fluid but you knew that right? The sampling (shear tests), etc compared to Type 1 are huge.

1900's north of 60 (maybe a total of 10, clearly resounding) simply because the Pratt starts better in cold weather, nothing else. It's not a fan of the cold either. The 1900C performs no better than a Metro. The plane has just as many faults. A B200 as comparison? It legally carries 9 pax and a small tooth brush if you are trying to go anywhere because it burns lots of gas and has a small door. There is essentially no one that operates a B200 for sked ops for a reason. It's useless and costs a lot of money to run especially if you are low and doing lots of cycles.
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digits_
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Re: Perimeter Shamattawa

Post by digits_ »

bobcaygeon wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 9:34 am
Type 4 approval (like a Dash 8, 1900, ATR) would be nice but please where up north is Type 4 even available????? Ummmmm. Nowhere :roll:

Good luck getting a truck up north that can do it and maintain the quality and environmental control needed for Type 4 fluid but you knew that right? The sampling (shear tests), etc compared to Type 1 are huge.

1900's north of 60 (maybe a total of 10, clearly resounding) simply because the Pratt starts better in cold weather, nothing else. It's not a fan of the cold either. The 1900C performs no better than a Metro. The plane has just as many faults. A B200 as comparison? It legally carries 9 pax and a small tooth brush if you are trying to go anywhere because it burns lots of gas and has a small door. There is essentially no one that operates a B200 for sked ops for a reason. It's useless and costs a lot of money to run especially if you are low and doing lots of cycles.
Just because it is hard or expensive to get type 4 up there, doesn't mean that type 1 is an acceptable alternative to anti ice or fly in icing conditions. That's my point: if *all* flights in ground icing conditions would get cancelled because you can't make the hold over times with type 1 fluid, maybe the extra cost would be worth it to organize it.

Just because the B200 might be more expensive to operate, doesn't mean that the metro is a suitable airplane for the north.
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valleyboy
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Re: Perimeter Shamattawa

Post by valleyboy »

To better understand your comment: Are you a Metro pilot as well, or just a passenger?
I am not a metro driver but have many years of flying under my belt with time on light turbo props and 11 types on my license. The passenger perspective is through professional eyes and all I can say a very twitchy aircraft which is usually exacerbated by either attitude, skills or both.
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cpt sweet'njuicy
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Re: Perimeter Shamattawa

Post by cpt sweet'njuicy »

Ooooo I like when people argue.....
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Re: Perimeter Shamattawa

Post by plausiblyannonymous »

cpt sweet'njuicy wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2020 9:46 am
Ooooo I like when people argue.....
The you sir have come to the right place.
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Re: Perimeter Shamattawa

Post by A Regulator »

As an FYI a paragraph in CASS changed 622.11 on 2019/09/20 to say.....(aircraft manufacturer has identified representative surface). Not like before where the air operator did and at times got approval from TC.

7.1.1.3 Examination of one or more representative aircraft surfaces may be used for the Pre-take-off Contamination Inspection, which does not require a tactile examination. This technique may be used when the aircraft manufacturer has identified representative aircraft surfaces that can be readily and clearly observed by flight crew during day and night operations and that are suitable for judging whether critical surfaces are contaminated or not.
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pelmet
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Re: Perimeter Shamattawa

Post by pelmet »

A Regulator wrote:
Sat Jan 25, 2020 7:48 pm
As an FYI a paragraph in CASS changed 622.11 on 2019/09/20 to say.....(aircraft manufacturer has identified representative surface). Not like before where the air operator did and at times got approval from TC.
Maybe because there was an approval of a top surface of a flap on a high wing aircraft being used.
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gimmepars
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Re: Perimeter Shamattawa

Post by gimmepars »

pelmet wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 10:50 am
co-joe wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 10:25 am
When the height of the snowbank exceeds the height of your wings, it might be time to start refusing to land there until better snow removal infrastructure is put in place.
I know that at certain airports, there are strict rules governing snowbanks(perhaps someone could give the details). I wonder if these northern airports fall into that category of requirements.
If anyone has a best practice or company guidelines/standards on cleared width between high snowbanks I'd be all eyes. I fly 704 but I'd be interested in 705 rules too.It's a major challenge getting the width I want at a couple airports I'm into regularly, and it sure looks like it caught up with the passengers and crew in this situation. Glad everyone is ok!

Thanks in advance!
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pelmet
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Re: Perimeter Shamattawa

Post by pelmet »

C-GWVH, a Fairchild SA227-AC operated by Perimeter Aviation LP as flight PAG415, departed
Thompson (CYTH) MB for Shamattawa (CZTM) MB with 12 passengers and 2 crew members.
During the landing rollout on Runway 19 at approximately 60 knots, aircraft directional control was
lost and the aircraft encountered a runway excursion to the right and collided with a snow berm at
a groundspeed of less than 20 knots. The right hand propeller (MT Propeller MTV-27-1) made
contact with a snow berm and shattered upon impact. RCMP responded to the scene. The ELT did
not activate and there were no injuries. A NOTAM was issued closing the airport until the aircraft
was removed from the runway.
The aircraft sustained damage to the left engine nacelle, nose gear doors, and right propeller. The
reported runway condition at the time of occurrence was 100% compacted snow. Data retrieved
from the aircraft's navigation system indicated the winds were 255 degrees at 18 knots on short
final prior to touchdown.


Class 5 investigation so not much detail will ever come out. Too bad if there really is some sort of performance issue that perhaps should be investigated.
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DCL415
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Re: Perimeter Shamattawa

Post by DCL415 »

The aircraft has been back in Winnipeg for a while, the damage doesn't seem substantial
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goingnowherefast
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Re: Perimeter Shamattawa

Post by goingnowherefast »

I've been disappointed in a lot of the recent TSB investigations. Gone are the days of the Dryden Inquirey.

Baslers keep going skating, swimming or bush-wacking and hardly a peep from the TSB or TC. A cargo train runs off the tracks and it is big f-n deal, crash 3 cargo planes and nobody seems to care.
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Plausibledeniability
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Re: Perimeter Shamattawa

Post by Plausibledeniability »

I’m pretty sure the TSB has left enough clues for us to figure out what happened. If it wasn’t obvious or a if it was a serious issue, they would investigate further.

I’m guessing airplane weathercocked due to the crosswinds and an icy runway. They don’t usually add those details in their write ups.
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Re: Perimeter Shamattawa

Post by valleyboy »

I'm not sure what the issue is. Their mandate is to investigate and if there are immediate safety issues, address them with the company and finish the investigation and write a report. I see nothing that makes it compulsory to keep the un-associated public informed.
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goingnowherefast
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Re: Perimeter Shamattawa

Post by goingnowherefast »

With the amount of airplanes that can't seem to stay on the runway, I'm surprised nobody is considering it an immediate safety issue. Everything from this one to WJ in YHZ.

Are airport operators keeping the runways in good condition with updated RSCs? Are operators and pilots (SOPs/training) considering the friction on these less-than-stellar runways? The CARs don't even require operators account for the friction or any contaminant of the surface they are landing on. Desnisty-altitude, temperature, and slope (CAR 705.56); wet runways if it's a jet is all they care about. But this is Canada where we have winter, snow and contaminated runways, yet no requirement to change the opration from dry pavement.
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Re: Perimeter Shamattawa

Post by PilotDAR »

the aircraft encountered a runway excursion
Don't you hate encountering runway excursions!? If you think you might encounter one, don't make eye contact!

Too many words, trying to sound important. Like police saying "rate of speed" - Speed is a rate!
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valleyboy
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Re: Perimeter Shamattawa

Post by valleyboy »

I would think that almost all runway excursions are preventable, most if not all I have seen has been the result of a brain fart or a poor decision made on the flight crews' part. If you want to take the true "dumb down" approach simply close the airports when it snows or any other time when the runway isn't bare and dry. :smt040
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iflyforpie
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Re: Perimeter Shamattawa

Post by iflyforpie »

PilotDAR wrote:
Sun Feb 09, 2020 8:35 pm
the aircraft encountered a runway excursion
Don't you hate encountering runway excursions!? If you think you might encounter one, don't make eye contact!

Too many words, trying to sound important. Like police saying "rate of speed" - Speed is a rate!
Haha. Same with “velocity vector”
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