Pilot leaves towbar on runway??

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rookiepilot
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Re: Pilot leaves towbar on runway??

Post by rookiepilot »

pelmet wrote: Mon Jan 27, 2020 4:32 pm
Look at the link to the Delta 727 crash. The checklist was completed yet the flaps were up
The checklist was not completed. End of story.

Do you read the links you post? Just curious.

"Based on the aircraft's failure to climb at takeoff speed, its roll instability, and the absence of sounds indicating the flaps or slats were deployed, the NTSB determined that the plane's failure to climb resulted from the flight crew's failure to deploy the flaps and slats as required by the pre-flight checklist."

I'm not getting this thread. If the crew HAD completed the checklist -- flaps would be done.
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Re: Pilot leaves towbar on runway??

Post by digits_ »

pelmet wrote: Mon Jan 27, 2020 3:42 pm

Guys like the pilots on that airliner probably think along your line of thinking. If you follow the checklist, everything will be fine. Just follow the checklist. But on occasion, an item gets missed.
If you are missing an item, you are not following the checklist. Running a checklist takes some practice and training. It's not just reading from a list and mindlessly regurgitating replies.

You read the item, you flip the switch if required and you verify the switch is in the correct position. Then you continue. It's not a race to go through everything like crazy without checking. If you feel like you need your own checklist to "really check", you are probably rushing the actual checklist in the airplane. If the checklist in the airplane is insufficient, change it.
pelmet wrote: Mon Jan 27, 2020 3:42 pm How do I know that? Because I have missed an item on a checklist....and more than once. Then there are situations like contaminated runway ops, where the checklist is done but the flaps are left up until holding short of the runway. Then the flaps are extended. Until someone forgets.
Different checklist for deicing conditions exist. If you follow a checklist, you will not "forget" an item.
pelmet wrote: Mon Jan 27, 2020 3:42 pm From an airliner point of view...….If only they had done similar to what I recommend close to lining up such as....speedbrakes stowed, flaps set, stab trim set, rudder trim set, v-speeds visible, LNAV and VNAV armed(or whatever is appropriate for your aircraft)(some are not killer items but can create an issue). A lot of people would be alive. It takes a little over 5 seconds and is not a checklist. Some would rather engage in non-pertinent discussion during the 10 minute wait for takeoff or enjoy watching the airliners land, etc. Usually, that is still possible.
In a multicrew environment that is dangerous advice. If one crewmember suddenly starts to run his own checklist when you are expecting to start the take off roll or when you are lining up the lane. That creates confusion in a multi crew cockpit.

Even single pilot, this only makes sense if you don't trust the checklist. In that case the remedy is "change the checklist" not "invent your own"
pelmet wrote: Mon Jan 27, 2020 3:42 pm Here is another bunch of deaths from a crew that never felt that a final check of certain items before takeoff could save the day....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delta_Air ... light_1141

If only....
That final check is called "line up checklist" or "before take off checklist". Follow it.


I have the impression that the root of your argument boils down to: "people make mistakes when running a checklist, so run the checklist twice to catch the mistakes".

Let's put some random numbers on it to make a point. Let's say a pilot misses 1% of the items when running a checklist. If you run the checklist twice, the chance of forgetting that item is 0.01% according to that philosophy.

However, what will really happen is that people will not pay attention to the checklist anymore if they have to run it twice. So you might get 10% of missed items on the first run, and maybe 20% of items on the second run. That gives you a 2% chance of a mistake versus running the checklist just once accurately.
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Re: Pilot leaves towbar on runway??

Post by pelmet »

photofly wrote: Mon Jan 27, 2020 4:45 pm
pelmet wrote: Mon Jan 27, 2020 4:32 pm The checklist was completed yet the flaps were up
Well then the checklist wasn’t completed, was it? Maybe the pilots thought it was ok because their own made-up checklists they’d decided to do later, were better, so didn’t pay any attention.

Layer upon layer of checklists, that’s the answer to every problem.
The final killer item check is the answer to your first sentence. Obviously you don't plan to do it and that's fine. There are a lot of pilots and pax who really wish it had been done. Others can decide for themselves if they feel the 10 to 30 extra seconds is worth it.
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Re: Pilot leaves towbar on runway??

Post by digits_ »

pelmet wrote: Mon Jan 27, 2020 6:50 pm Others can decide for themselves if they feel the 10 to 30 extra seconds is worth it.
At the airlines you can't. That's the whole point of SOPs in a multicrew environment: to follow the company determined standard way of doing things. Not doing your own checks because you feel like it.

If the SOPs are unsafe, SMS it. If not, follow them, even -especially- if you disagree with them!
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Re: Pilot leaves towbar on runway??

Post by pelmet »

rookiepilot wrote: Mon Jan 27, 2020 4:50 pm
pelmet wrote: Mon Jan 27, 2020 4:32 pm
Look at the link to the Delta 727 crash. The checklist was completed yet the flaps were up
The checklist was not completed. End of story.

Do you read the links you post? Just curious.

"Based on the aircraft's failure to climb at takeoff speed, its roll instability, and the absence of sounds indicating the flaps or slats were deployed, the NTSB determined that the plane's failure to climb resulted from the flight crew's failure to deploy the flaps and slats as required by the pre-flight checklist."

I'm not getting this thread. If the crew HAD completed the checklist -- flaps would be done.

From the CVR....

"0859:08 CAM-3 before takeoff checklists complete"

OK...in the end, my safety check works wonders for those who are under the impression that their pre-takeoff checklist is complete when in fact it is not for whatever reason.

Would have saved these guys as well...

https://reports.aviation-safety.net/200 ... EC-HFP.pdf
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Re: Pilot leaves towbar on runway??

Post by pelmet »

digits_ wrote: Mon Jan 27, 2020 7:06 pm
pelmet wrote: Mon Jan 27, 2020 6:50 pm Others can decide for themselves if they feel the 10 to 30 extra seconds is worth it.
At the airlines you can't. That's the whole point of SOPs in a multicrew environment: to follow the company determined standard way of doing things. Not doing your own checks because you feel like it.

If the SOPs are unsafe, SMS it. If not, follow them, even -especially- if you disagree with them!
Yes you can do it. I do it....silently, every time. And I am going to continue to do it because I do feel like it....and I will continue recommending it. By the way, pitot heat is a good item to double check for many types. Brought down a Russian airliner last year...many died.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saratov_A ... Flight_703

Entertaining(well...scary) how many seem opposed. I guess they never make mistakes.
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Last edited by pelmet on Mon Jan 27, 2020 7:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Pilot leaves towbar on runway??

Post by digits_ »

pelmet wrote: Mon Jan 27, 2020 7:13 pm
Entertaining(well...scary) how many seem opposed.
Because your suggestions will make things worse, not better.
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Re: Pilot leaves towbar on runway??

Post by pelmet »

digits_ wrote: Mon Jan 27, 2020 7:36 pm
pelmet wrote: Mon Jan 27, 2020 7:13 pm
Entertaining(well...scary) how many seem opposed.
Because your suggestions will make things worse, not better.
Not for the people on these flights....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northwest ... Flight_255
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delta_Air ... light_1141
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lufthansa_Flight_540
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandala_A ... Flight_091
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanair_Flight_5022
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saratov_A ... Flight_703
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USAir_Flight_5050
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan_Am_Flight_799

and there are many, many more. Thank god none of the pilots ever silently did a last minute check as it would have made things worse, not better.
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Re: Pilot leaves towbar on runway??

Post by digits_ »

If we all started doing extra checks, and thus devaluating the importance of the manufacturer checklists, that list would most likely be much longer.

CRM and checklist got introduced for a reason. Stick to them.
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Re: Pilot leaves towbar on runway??

Post by photofly »

If you catch an item on your impromptu post-checklist killer-items-only checklist, that you should have caught on your official checklist ... is that a big deal? Or does the fact that you caught it on your post-checklist checklist mean that everything is ok?

I think we have to move checks from a thing you do once, to an awareness of aircraft state. I don't have a checklist for airspeed; I don't see why I need a checklist for flap position. I don't want a checklist item to "confirm towbar stowed" - I just want to be aware that the towbar is still attached to the nose gear.
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Re: Pilot leaves towbar on runway??

Post by pelmet »

digits_ wrote: Mon Jan 27, 2020 8:05 pm If we all started doing extra checks, and thus devaluating the importance of the manufacturer checklists, that list would most likely be much longer.

CRM and checklist got introduced for a reason. Stick to them.
I have given several examples where my technique would have prevented an accident. How about you show just one where it(the action of silently confirming the certain critical items were actually completed after having completed the checklist) caused an accident.

Nuff said.
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Re: Pilot leaves towbar on runway??

Post by photofly »

pelmet wrote: Mon Jan 27, 2020 9:31 pm I have given several examples where my technique would have prevented an accident.
There are dozens of things that could have been done differently in your examples, that would have prevented an accident. Correctly completing the action lists or checklists, the first time, being the obvious example.

It's meaningless to make a new procedure which, if completed perfectly, would have prevented an accident, when the old procedures, if completed perfectly, would also have prevented the same accident. You must see that, surely?


The second fallacy to which you have fallen victim is to presume that you can overlay a new layer of checks, on top of an old layer of checks, without affecting how the old checks are done. You're saying "I want it done exactly the old way, except we'll do it the new way, as well." For all you know, those accidents were actually caused because the pilots had instituted their own mental killer-items checklists, not taken sufficiently seriously the original checks, and then screwed up their own killer-item checklists. "We don't need to worry about the flaps now, because I make a mental note to always check them just before takeoff." Until that time they didn't.
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Re: Pilot leaves towbar on runway??

Post by pelmet »

Thank you for your argument. It is something for any pilot to consider.

Once again....

I have given several examples where my technique would have prevented an accident. How about you show just one where it(the action of silently confirming the certain critical items were actually completed after having completed the checklist) caused an accident.
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Re: Pilot leaves towbar on runway??

Post by photofly »

pelmet wrote: Mon Jan 27, 2020 10:10 pm I have given several examples where my technique would have prevented an accident.
But you haven't done that at all. I state with equal certitude (and an equal lack of factual knowledge) that the unauthorized implementation and acceptance of your technique, contrary to established SOPs, actually caused those accidents.


To be clear, the act of perfectly confirming killer-items would have prevented those accidents. But if one could guarantee perfection in silently confirming killer items, one could equally well guarantee perfect not-silent confirming of aircraft configuration at the appropriate time, and you would no longer need a silent check of killer items. The reason why you think you need a killer-item check - human fallibility at repetitive checks - is the very reason why another level of repetitive checks cannot be the solution to missed checklist items. You cannot fix a leaky bucket with another leaky bucket.
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Last edited by photofly on Mon Jan 27, 2020 10:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Pilot leaves towbar on runway??

Post by pelmet »

photofly wrote: Mon Jan 27, 2020 10:14 pm
pelmet wrote: Mon Jan 27, 2020 10:10 pm I have given several examples where my technique would have prevented an accident.
I state with equal certitude (and an equal lack of factual knowledge) that the unauthorized implementation and acceptance of your technique, contrary to established SOPs, actually caused those accidents.
Please show the details on any one of them where my technique of silently checking the killer items after completion of the checklists caused any one of those accidents. I'm sorry but you are getting ridiculous and I bet you didn't even read the reports of most of them if any of them in the short time they were posted(I admit I haven't read the Russian report).
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Last edited by pelmet on Mon Jan 27, 2020 10:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Pilot leaves towbar on runway??

Post by pelmet »

photofly wrote: Mon Jan 27, 2020 10:14 pm
pelmet wrote: Mon Jan 27, 2020 10:10 pm I have given several examples where my technique would have prevented an accident.
To be clear, the act of perfectly confirming killer-items would have prevented those accidents.
Thank you.
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Re: Pilot leaves towbar on runway??

Post by photofly »

pelmet wrote: Mon Jan 27, 2020 10:47 pm
Please show the details on any one of them where my technique of silently checking the killer items after completion of the checklists caused the accident. I'm sorry but you are getting ridiculous and I bet you didn't even read the reports of most of them if any of them in the short time they were posted(I admit I haven't read the Russian report).
Delta 1141: The captain said to himself: "You know, the copilot isn't taking these configuration checks seriously, but that's ok because I always use Pelmet's secret silent killer items checklist by myself, so I don't need to step in and ensure that the checks are done right. I'll just catch any mistakes later.
.
.
.
Shit. Forgot the flaps.


The NTSB didn't say that a probable cause was failure to implement a Pelmet's silent killer-items checklist. A probable cause was "inadequate cockpit discipline". They said "Delta did not insist on standardized crew cockpit management, and that flight crews were allowed significant latitude in their conduct of cockpit operations."
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Re: Pilot leaves towbar on runway??

Post by pelmet »

photofly wrote: Mon Jan 27, 2020 10:53 pm
pelmet wrote: Mon Jan 27, 2020 10:47 pm
Please show the details on any one of them where my technique of silently checking the killer items after completion of the checklists caused the accident. I'm sorry but you are getting ridiculous and I bet you didn't even read the reports of most of them if any of them in the short time they were posted(I admit I haven't read the Russian report).
Delta 1141: The captain said to himself: "You know, the copilot isn't taking these configuration checks seriously, but that's ok because I always use Pelmet's secret silent killer items checklist by myself, so I don't need to step in and ensure that the checks are done right. I'll just catch any mistakes later.
Shit. Forgot the flaps.


The NTSB didn't say that a probable cause was failure to implement a Pelmet's silent killer-items checklist. A probable cause was "inadequate cockpit discipline". They said "Delta did not insist on standardized crew cockpit management, and that flight crews were allowed significant latitude in their conduct of cockpit operations."
Sorry, your response to my question of showing an example of where my technique caused an accident(which is what you said) does not back up your claim. In reality what you are doing is known as "making up shit". And stupid shit at that.


I wonder how many pilots reading this thread double or triple check that the landing gear is down and locked after completing their checklist.

Be honest photofly...do you?
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Last edited by pelmet on Mon Jan 27, 2020 11:00 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Pilot leaves towbar on runway??

Post by photofly »

pelmet wrote: Mon Jan 27, 2020 10:48 pm
photofly wrote: Mon Jan 27, 2020 10:14 pm
pelmet wrote: Mon Jan 27, 2020 10:10 pm I have given several examples where my technique would have prevented an accident.
To be clear, the act of perfectly confirming killer-items would have prevented those accidents.
Thank you.
Can you guarantee your personal silent killer-item checklist is executed perfectly every time?
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Re: Pilot leaves towbar on runway??

Post by pelmet »

I wonder how many pilots reading this thread double or triple check that the landing gear is down and locked after completing their checklist.

Be honest photofly...do you?

Yes you do. And if you don't, you ain't too bright. Good night.
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