RCAF Cyclone Down

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Heliian
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Re: RCAF Cyclone Down

Post by Heliian »

AuxBatOn wrote: Wed May 13, 2020 6:32 am
Heliian wrote: Wed May 13, 2020 6:14 am From the sounds of it now, being military or civilian had no bearing on this crash. Making poor decisions is universal.

Someone is now saying this happened during a "high speed, low level" photo op pass.

It's 2020 and still people push the limits to the end, for no good reason.
What if they did this within the limits of the aircraft and the rules?
Oh, for sure the intention was to keep it all in the green, just like many other collisions with terrain during low passes.

When you take away your margin for error, any mistake can be fatal. Helicopters have a tendency to sink fast and you can't just jerk back on the controls like an airplane to gain altitude. There is a very good reason why most HV diagrams prohibit low level, high speed flight.

Now, since this cyclone was fly by wire, it's possible that even if you did jerk on the controls, the inputs would be muted by the system to keep the aircraft from destroying itself.

One scenario I could see happening is if the aircraft made too steep of an approach for the deck and collided with the surface before the descent could be arrested. Maybe they were trailing a sonobuoy still? Maybe they had a triple computer failure.

In any case, it's just a tragedy to lose a crew during what should be a benign training sortie.
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Gilles Hudicourt
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Re: RCAF Cyclone Down

Post by Gilles Hudicourt »

Heliian wrote: Wed May 13, 2020 6:14 am Someone is now saying this happened during a "high speed, low level" photo op pass.
If true, its a good thing for the investigation, for a photo op pass means photos of the crash, or even better, videos.....
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Jean-Pierre
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Re: RCAF Cyclone Down

Post by Jean-Pierre »

If true that is very sad. I feel terrible for the innocent passenger on board who had no say in the stunt. The record for lowest pass has been set and can not be beat. And 3000 meter below the ocean does not count.
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7ECA
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Re: RCAF Cyclone Down

Post by 7ECA »

The story also keeps changing in the media, first it was the helicopter crashed during training near one of the Greek Islands, then it was within 2 miles of the HMCS Fredericton when it suddenly crashed - then later it was less than 2 kilometres away...

There's something very odd about this whole situation, certainly the lack of any definitive release as to where the helicopter was in relation to the Fredericton and what was going on, makes it seem as though the military or the Government are trying to bury facts.
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mijbil
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Re: RCAF Cyclone Down

Post by mijbil »

7ECA wrote: Wed May 13, 2020 8:43 am The story also keeps changing in the media, first it was the helicopter crashed during training near one of the Greek Islands, then it was within 2 miles of the HMCS Fredericton when it suddenly crashed - then later it was less than 2 kilometres away...

There's something very odd about this whole situation, certainly the lack of any definitive release as to where the helicopter was in relation to the Fredericton and what was going on, makes it seem as though the military or the Government are trying to bury facts.
For starters, it's the media. How often do they get the crucial details wrong? The cynic in me says every time they do a 'story'. For the just the facts part, you will have to wait for the FSR = mil equivalent of an SMS report. The detailed one can take ages. It's soooo tempting to regurgitate what you heard via the grapevine, but it's best to just wait.
Here is an example: One fine day in Moose Jaw a student on trip #1 with his instructor in the back with the canopy closed and the seats armed and just about to taxi - ejected. We all figured that the kid was fiddling with the ejection handle and accidentally pulled it a little too far. It was the consensus of most of us Monday morning QBs that that was the only way it could happen. Flash forward and the report comes out and finds that he ejected by turning his head to clear left. Whaaat? On the Hornet, there is a thin piece of material sewn around the loop of the ejection handle. You could drive your fingers through it if required, like in an actual ejection. It prevents anything from getting entangled with the ejection loop. On the Harvard II there is no such material. The loop is open. The instructor will watch you do most of the preflight on flight #1 (CH1) but when it comes time to hop in you're basically on your own and hopefully learned it well enough in the sims. Like any ejection seat aircraft, you literally tie into it. Your oxygen hose clips into part of your harness on the right and then you connect the O2 hose and the comms cord to the airplane. Somehow the kid managed to feed the comms cord THROUGH the ejection handle loop. Arm the seat, start the engine, get the ATIS etc, taxi clearance, clear left and BOOM....start your impromtu parachute lesson.
I know the guy who led the FS investigation. In fact he is one of my resume references. He told me the full back story. The kid had no idea how it happened and swore he wasn't playing with the ejection handle. Kid was telling the truth. Reason they knew? They found small chunks of the insulation of the comms cord embedded in the ejection loop. Accidental ejection, but you had to wait for the FS team to do their thing.
Sidebar note: I also know the instructor who was in the back when it happened. He got minor burns from the rocket blast of the seat since he hadn't clipped his mask on fully. It certainly got his attention. "So what did you do"? "Well, I shut down the airplane called the tower and called it a day in a nutshell." "What did you give the student for ground handling on the assessment card, a zero or a five?"
I'll let you guys fill in the blank :smt040

Wait for the FSR and no the government will not bury this one. Check back to this link from time to time.
http://airforce.forces.gc.ca/en/flight- ... ports.page
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Dry Guy
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Re: RCAF Cyclone Down

Post by Dry Guy »

Terrible design that someone turning their head could exert enough force to activate the handle.
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TT1900
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Re: RCAF Cyclone Down

Post by TT1900 »

7ECA wrote: Wed May 13, 2020 8:43 am The story also keeps changing in the media, first it was the helicopter crashed during training near one of the Greek Islands, then it was within 2 miles of the HMCS Fredericton when it suddenly crashed - then later it was less than 2 kilometres away...
Perhaps it’s because the media runs with whatever they’re given and do very little verification before publishing. Notice how in the first story run they pushed out all sorts of info, but the only official response from DND was that contact with a Cyclone has been lost.

As others have said, wait for the FSR. That goes double for those jumping to conclusions about “low-passes” and “stunts”. Very naive comments.
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mijbil
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Re: RCAF Cyclone Down

Post by mijbil »

Dry Guy wrote: Wed May 13, 2020 12:37 pm by Dry Guy » Wed May 13, 2020 12:37 pm

Terrible design that someone turning their head could exert enough force to activate the handle.
That thing always made me nervous. I flew a little bowlegged. I'd have to ask around as to the "fix" or what we called 'preventative measure'. A simple one would have been to install a piece of fabric around the loop just like the Hornet. Getting that approved via the mil bureaucracy and then putting out tenders to produce the fix.....well that's probably a story of bureaucracy run wild which in its own way is the 30 years back story to the Cyclone replacement of the 55 year old Sea King.
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TT1900
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Re: RCAF Cyclone Down

Post by TT1900 »

mijbil wrote: Wed May 13, 2020 1:06 pm
Dry Guy wrote: Wed May 13, 2020 12:37 pm by Dry Guy » Wed May 13, 2020 12:37 pm

Terrible design that someone turning their head could exert enough force to activate the handle.
That thing always made me nervous. I flew a little bowlegged. I'd have to ask around as to the "fix" or what we called 'preventative measure'. A simple one would have been to install a piece of fabric around the loop just like the Hornet. Getting that approved via the mil bureaucracy and then putting out tenders to produce the fix.....well that's probably a story of bureaucracy run wild which in its own way is the 30 years back story to the Cyclone replacement of the 55 year old Sea King.
Comm cord was shortened to a length that precludes it being able to go through the handle.
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Heliian
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Re: RCAF Cyclone Down

Post by Heliian »

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/cyclon ... -1.5566656

A gathering of what is known so far.

The DND has confirmed there are witnesses to the crash. The government has been extremely slow and/or cautious about the information it releases but with the cvr and fdr already downloaded I'm sure they have a good start to their investigation, not to mention whatever other telemetry they would have been receiving from the aircraft leading up to the accident.
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7ECA
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Re: RCAF Cyclone Down

Post by 7ECA »

Heliian wrote: Wed May 13, 2020 3:07 pm The government has been extremely slow and/or cautious about the information it releases...
The Government is going to be under a fair bit of scrutiny, if it turns out this was either caused by a gearbox issue or the known fault with the FBW computer(s), then there's going to be an inquisition. Well, there should be an inquisition if the cause of the accident ends up being partly to blame on standard government-dumb-fuckery and procurement processes that take decades.

And yes, I'm fully aware that I've said inquisition rather than inquiry - that's intended.
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Gear Jerker
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Re: RCAF Cyclone Down

Post by Gear Jerker »

You could probably count on one hand, in the history of aviation, how many times the media has reported useful, accurate, and contextually relevant information regarding an aviation incident - especially soon after the occurrence.

At my airline, a CBC reporter with a deadline published an article about a crew conducting a routine go around, and included a quote from a passenger who declared that they almost died. This passenger had no aviation background. In fact, the approach became unstable, and the go around led to a subsequent stable approach. IE a crew followed SOP's perfectly.

Point being, let's view ANYTHING in the media regarding our fallen brethren through several layers of course rock salt.

In time, we will know what happened, and aviation safety will advance incrementally through whatever lessons there are to learn.
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OldTracker
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Re: RCAF Cyclone Down

Post by OldTracker »

Not a bad write up of operation ending today here:
https://ca.news.yahoo.com/military-ends ... 38505.html
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boeingboy
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Re: RCAF Cyclone Down

Post by boeingboy »

Update from the recorders. Not much but it seems whatever happened was unexpected.

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/canada/m ... r-BB15cMHg
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Heliian
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Re: RCAF Cyclone Down

Post by Heliian »

boeingboy wrote: Mon Jun 08, 2020 11:28 am Update from the recorders. Not much but it seems whatever happened was unexpected.

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/canada/m ... r-BB15cMHg
Oh, it's all there, the fdr will provide an excellent picture of the final moments of flight.

From RCAF:

"During the return for recovery, the aircraft made a pass on the port side of the ship, from stern to bow. The aircraft then executed a left hand turn to establish a downwind leg in preparation for approach to the ship. Astern and inside the control zone of the ship, the aircraft commenced a final left turn to set-up for the approach. During this final complex manoeuvring turn to close with the ship, the aircraft did not respond as the crew would have anticipated. This event occurred at a low altitude, was unrecoverable and the aircraft entered a high energy descent and impacted the water astern the ship."

This sounds like servo transparency or settling with power(not to be confused with VRS).
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PilotDAR
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Re: RCAF Cyclone Down

Post by PilotDAR »

The CBC reported today that the helicopter was performing a "complex turn" before it descended into the ocean. I'm not quite sure what a complex turn would be....
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photofly
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Re: RCAF Cyclone Down

Post by photofly »

EDIT: Meh. On second thoughts, not the best context for humour.
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Heliian
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Re: RCAF Cyclone Down

Post by Heliian »

PilotDAR wrote: Mon Jun 08, 2020 12:18 pm The CBC reported today that the helicopter was performing a "complex turn" before it descended into the ocean. I'm not quite sure what a complex turn would be....
I just quoted the update from the rcaf: http://www.rcaf-arc.forces.gc.ca/en/fl ... r/kae63jt8

What it sounds like to me is a flyby, followed by a "normal" left turn, maintaining speed for the downwind and then the "complex" part would be a cranking left turn to short final that drops and reduces airspeed. Essentially a descending, high g turn. The overloading of the rotor causes the servos to become unresponsive until the situation is corrected. If you don't have the altitude to ease off and come back out of it then you will crash.
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AuxBatOn
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Re: RCAF Cyclone Down

Post by AuxBatOn »

Heliian wrote: Mon Jun 08, 2020 12:54 pm Essentially a descending, high g turn. The overloading of the rotor causes the servos to become unresponsive until the situation is corrected. If you don't have the altitude to ease off and come back out of it then you will crash.
Says who?
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Heliian
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Re: RCAF Cyclone Down

Post by Heliian »

AuxBatOn wrote: Mon Jun 08, 2020 1:12 pm
Heliian wrote: Mon Jun 08, 2020 12:54 pm Essentially a descending, high g turn. The overloading of the rotor causes the servos to become unresponsive until the situation is corrected. If you don't have the altitude to ease off and come back out of it then you will crash.
Says who?
The phenomenon is known as servo transparency.

As I said in the sentence right before the one you quoted, this is what I am gathering from the very brief update.

Purposely changing direction, airspeed and altitude all at once, maybe dropping the gear out at the same time? is about as "complex" as it gets, especially if he went downwind at deck level then did a 180 turn at high bank to come back on final.
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