Navajo Crash in Georgia

[mantogasrsrwy]

Video appears to show a flat spin on fire.

https://fox6now.com/2020/06/06/pilot-fl ... JqagGYVlZw

[co-joe]

A PA31T is a Cheyenne not a Navajo. And that video is terrifying.

[PilotDAR]

Correct, that was a Cheyenne I or II. Cheyennes have wing tip tanks, does the video make appear that part of one wing is missing?

Three general comments about spins: Twins are not required to demonstrate being recoverable for certification, so a pilot is not assured that once in, recovery is possible (from my Cheyenne flying years ago, it would not be a type I'd risk a spin in). Mass out on the wings (wing tip fuel tanks) make spin recovery more difficult. And, the more aft the C of G, the less recoverable a spin will be. A Cheyenne has a large cabin, and can be aft loaded easily if you're carrying a lot.

[Pratt X 3]

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N13 ... Z/X60/KUWL

[Canoehead]

It was a Cheyenne II XL. If I recall correctly (it's been 20 years), the tip-tanks only carried about 30 minutes worth of fuel. An hour in where is appears the trouble started they would have been long empty (they gravity feed into the nacelle tanks; no pilot control).

Any number of things could have gone wrong as they transited through that area of convective wx. Was the fire the result of something? Or was the something the result of the fire? It looks like it happened fast; no distress call. Reminiscent of another Cheyenne crash due to an inflight breakup several years ago, although the fire in this one is troubling.

What an awful way to go.

[jpilot77]

In air breakup? On the way to a funeral on top of it. What a horrible way to go RIP.

[PilotDAR]

It's been 35 years since I flew the Cheyenne II, aside from one day of testing one a few years back. I recall that the tip tanks carried 400 pounds each (so around an hour), and were selected. The Cheyenne I flew back in the '80's only indicated the tanks selected (tips or mains), while the one I flew briefly a few years back indicated the quantity in all tanks all the time. This detail is retained in my memory because I once signed for the fuel, to find out as we broke ground night IFR in snow, that the refueller had filled one tip tank, but not the other. I had not hit the switch to check the indication of the tip tanks, which were not selected. We well exceeded that permissible 200 pound tip tank imbalance, and it took two of us to keep it level. My memory is subject to age on this one, but that was a pretty memorable takeoff.

This of course, may only be anecdotal to this sad event. I really liked the Cheyenne, but it was lots of plane, with oodles of power ('lost an engine once, and your really couldn't tell much in the cruise). I'm sure that they bite if angered....

[yeah yeah]

I saw an interview with local Sherrif who reported one engine was found several miles from crash site.

[anofly]

that boom in one video may have been from the event, its a ways away....

[Capt. Underpants]

I saw an interview with local Sherrif who reported one engine was found several miles from crash site.

Yikes!

[2112]

Mildly terrifying, RIP.

[cncpc]

I saw an interview with local Sherrif who reported one engine was found several miles from crash site.

Yikes!

Shed a blade...?

[jakeandelwood]

Mildly terrifying, RIP.

I'm quite sure it was much more terrifying than just "mild"

[rigpiggy]

that was a cheyenne 1/2 the XL is like a chieftain an extra(2/3) window in front of the wing. the cheyenne 1/2/xl have 5 tanks interconnected. Fuel selection is on/off, and a xfeed and shutoff the pump on the side that you want to feed to. To fill you use the nacelle filler first run her up to 21/2200#s ish then finish off to 2452#(hazy) through the tip tanks. The fuel indicated all per side, and realistically if both nacs were full, and he forgot one side you would only be 200# out of balance. At that to get it all in you have to fill let drop, then fill again. The second video looks like the wing outboard the nacelle on one side is missing, no coming back from that, regardless of your anti spin controls.

I'm looking for the manual and will post a pic
google drive won't let me print screen, so 439 pages aren't happening.

300gal w/o tip tanks...they were optional
328 filling nacelles w/tips
366 with full nacs, and tips

[PilotDAR]

The Cheyenne II I used to fly allowed the pilot to select mains or tips with a fuel selector for each side of the plane: Main/Aux/Off. There was a separate firewall shut off for each engine too. These controls were on the spar between the seats. The fuel quantity indicator was set up such there was a left and right indication. The indication was for the tanks selected. There was a momentary contact switch beside the indicator, which if held in the other position, would indicate the quantity of the tanks not selected. I remember this, as having taken of with everything full, except one tip, I hit that switch, and recall seeing the left tip indicating very little, and right full. I recall that there was no Piper procedure to run both engines from the tanks on one side to rebalance, because while I flew, my captain phoned Piper to ask how to do it, and was given a procedure, which worked. (I don't remember what he did, I was busy building muscle!)

I had occasion to flight test a different Cheyenne II for a day a few years back, and found that it's fuel indication system was different from this. I wonder if there was a change along the way, when I was not associated with Cheyennes - as the original system invited error!

[valleyboy]

Were these aircraft fitted with fire suppression or just fire indication like so many small turbines in the past. You know you are on fire but can't do anything about it except get it on the ground and bail.

[Cliff Jumper]

because while I flew, my captain phoned Piper to ask how to do it, and was given a procedure, which worked. (I don't remember what he did, I was busy building muscle!)

Just out of curiosity... you had a cell phone in 1985 (35 years ago)???

[mbav8r]

because while I flew, my captain phoned Piper to ask how to do it, and was given a procedure, which worked. (I don't remember what he did, I was busy building muscle!)

Just out of curiosity... you had a cell phone in 1985 (35 years ago)???

For what it’s worth, the Cheyenne I flew had a sat phone installed, not active however but was there as equipment. It was installed at the base of the centre console. I agree though, I instantly thought it was BS, the Captain happened to know the number to Piper, what is the chances of that.
Also, the tanks were interconnected like rigpiggy described above, perhaps earlier model Cheyenne’s had selectable tanks and improvements were made to the system as time went on.

[PilotDAR]

Just out of curiosity... you had a cell phone in 1985 (35 years ago)???

In this case, the plane had a "Flight phone" which operated on the mobile phone network which predated cell phones. It was a radio thing - you used the "phone" to call a mobile operator by radio signal $, and the operator would place the phone call for you $$, then it behaved like a phone $$$. This airplane had one, as it was a very well equipped corporate plane back in the day. The Captain called the Chief Pilot at home, and he phoned Piper, got the answer and called us back. Captain did all of this while I flew with lots of right aileron force being applied to the control wheel. Captain and Chief Pilot were very interested in a successful outcome of the flight, I was just doing what I was told, but it was memorable....

FWIW, when I worked for Worldways (ending in 1984) we had one cell phone, it was like a tool box with a hand set on top. 'New thing, worked so so, did not fit in pocket well. They did not work well in flight though, so we used the Flight Phones in the plane, as that was their intended use.

[Canoehead]

Were these aircraft fitted with fire suppression or just fire indication like so many small turbines in the past. You know you are on fire but can't do anything about it except get it on the ground and bail.

Fire bottles were optional on the IIXL. The ones I flew had none, just fire detection loops.

that was a cheyenne 1/2 the XL is like a chieftain an extra(2/3) window in front of the wing. the cheyenne 1/2/xl have 5 tanks interconnected. Fuel selection is on/off, and a xfeed and shutoff the pump on the side that you want to feed to. To fill you use the nacelle filler first run her up to 21/2200#s ish then finish off to 2452#(hazy) through the tip tanks. The fuel indicated all per side, and realistically if both nacs were full, and he forgot one side you would only be 200# out of balance. At that to get it all in you have to fill let drop, then fill again. The second video looks like the wing outboard the nacelle on one side is missing, no coming back from that, regardless of your anti spin controls.

I'm looking for the manual and will post a pic
google drive won't let me print screen, so 439 pages aren't happening.

300gal w/o tip tanks...they were optional
328 filling nacelles w/tips
366 with full nacs, and tips

There was no "1 XL". Only the IIXL. It has 4 tanks per side. Nacelle, inboard main, outboard main and the tip tank. The tip drains into the inboard main. As you mentioned, 2200 LB for the "Nacelle tanks" (6 mains) and another 300 LB total for the tip tanks. 2500 LB total fuel is about 4:30 endurance, and 2200 LB is 4:00. The straight II might have more fuel control, but it was a different airplane altogether than the IIXL, including different engines, air conditioning and the straight II had an SAS.

No controls for where the fuel comes from; all automatic from respective sides into their engines. There are only firewall shut-offs, and a crossfeed valve for SE ops.

I have about 2000 Hrs in the IIXL. Awesome airplane; often referred to as the "K-Mart King Air", but we routinely had fun leaving the King Air 100 below and behind.

This airplane definitely had no fuel in the tip tanks when the event occurred.