Hawk Air

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PA32pilot
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Hawk Air

Post by PA32pilot »

Tsb 19O0089 Interesting reading.
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Donald
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Re: Hawk Air

Post by Donald »

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Canoehead
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Re: Hawk Air

Post by Canoehead »

Interesting pissing match between the TSB and TC over the stall warning system. TSB is 100% correct on this and TC looks like amateur hour in non-action.

I'm always amazed by companies/pilots who think they know how to fly an airplane better than the manufacturer (flap retraction schedule).

I've been unimpressed by TSB accident reports (Air) over the past many years. But I think The Board has done a good job here on this one. Detailed, direct and in a timely manner.
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cncpc
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Re: Hawk Air

Post by cncpc »

I agree. This is a very well done report.
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karmutzen
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Re: Hawk Air

Post by karmutzen »

Good report, primary finding was engine quit on takeoff while selected to an empty tank. Everything else was secondary but still worthy of note by the TSB as a recommendation. Like shoulder harnesses, wouldn’t have made a difference in this accident but an overall good idea. Or a stall warning (actually a warning of a pending wing stall in certain conditions), generally a good idea but whether a factor or not is questionable. One of those ipso facto things: he crashed and didn’t have “x” installed, therefore must be the reason. None of the planes I fly currently have a stall warning, none of the half dozen Beavers I have flown 4000 hrs on did either, not a factor here in my judgement.
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pilotidentity
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Re: Hawk Air

Post by pilotidentity »

Not using a checklist probably the real reason for these deaths. Before takeoff, Fuel....on fullest tank. Check.

Who uses a checklist in a Beaver? We all should be.

I'm lucky to be here after making the same mistake, took off on an empty tank I was using just for the taxi and then forgot to switch before pouring the coals to her. When telling my story to other Beaver pilots MANY confess they have done the same.... and unlike a Cessna, a Beaver usually quits dead cold when blowing a tank, no warning with sputtering etc...

Another accident waiting to happen in the Beaver is jumping between two Beavers with two different fuel selectors setups, with muscle memory it's possible to switch the fuel to off... with this one even a checklist might not help as your brain says it's all good...

Most of the accidents listed at the end would most probably have happened regardless of a stall warning or not... just my opinion.

My condolences to the loved ones of those lost in this crash.
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sunk
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Re: Hawk Air

Post by sunk »

Yup, did the exact same thing. Warming up on a near empty tank, got busy with my two young grandkids. Departed a very small lake, just got airborne and she went very quite. Came to a stop just a few feet from shore. Felt like a complete idiot.
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Maynard
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Re: Hawk Air

Post by Maynard »

Fuel
Flap
Trim

The only checklist needed just before the water rudders go up.
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switchflicker
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Re: Hawk Air

Post by switchflicker »

But, it's still a checklist.
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Maynard
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Re: Hawk Air

Post by Maynard »

Correct, that's why I said it was.

"The only checklist needed just before the water rudders go up."
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Re: Hawk Air

Post by switchflicker »

Check
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Castorero
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Re: Hawk Air

Post by Castorero »

The checklist can be a lifesaver, but if you are flying something like a Beaver day in and day out, you will know the routine inside out and will likely not use a written list.

I think the problem with whatever method one uses, written or muscle memory, is when there is a distraction or interruption of the checklist.
For instance, if you are at the point of putting your hand on the fuel selector to switch to fullest tank and you are interrupted for whatever reason, when you resume, the brain may tell you that you already did the fuel check and move on to the next item, when in fact the fuel selector is still on the wrong tank.

This phenomenon has been noted in more than one accident report.

It is especially so when one is pressed for time.

I wonder...if there is an interruption of the check list, whether one should restart from the beginning to avoid this pitfall, or even restart two or three item back on the list, in the case of more complex aircraft.

I can't be sure what my own response has been to an interruption in the past, other than completing the checklist. But I can't be sure that I didn't miss something either.

Something to think about...
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Last edited by Castorero on Thu Oct 15, 2020 10:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Hawk Air

Post by Castorero »

Just when you think that you may have had an original idea, this happens... I stumbled upon a post by Pelmet in 2016 entitled "Easy to Forget"

It is well worth reading, as it touches on research as to how and why we forget to remember.
and the failure of prospective memory.
It also includes several suggested measures that can help to remember and carry out intended actions.

Much clearer and thorough than my amateurish attempt at an explanation in the previous post.

Learn something new everyday...

And today it is that is it's a good idea to use a checklist even when flying a Beaver day in and day out.
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Maynard
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Re: Hawk Air

Post by Maynard »

Castorero wrote: Wed Oct 14, 2020 7:07 pm

I wonder...if there is an interruption of the check list, whether one should restart from the beginning to avoid this pitfall, or even restart two or three item back on the list, in the case of more complex aircraft.

I can't speak for 705 aircraft, but when I flew IFR any interruption of the flow, I always started from the beginning. Usually why you restart is because you got interrupted and can't remember where you were in the checklist. So starting in the middle, I don't think is a wise idea.
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I guess I should write something here.
ozone
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Re: Hawk Air

Post by ozone »

F-Flaps
T-Trim
F-Fuel (quantity and selector position)
C-Carb heat in
A-Area (sufficient takeoff distance and obstacles)
R-Rudders up
S-Security (belts, windows, doors etc)

FTFCARS

Have used this acronym taught to me when I got my float rating in 2006. 1000hrs later on floats and many different floatplanes including 500hrs on a beaver I have yet to blow a tank or forget my water rudders.
Have heard way too many stories of guys blowing a tank unintentionally on a beaver.

Also GUMP check 5 mins out and on final.

G-gas (selector on full tank. That way it’s already there when you depart next)
U-undercarriage
M-mixture
P-prop
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pelmet
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Re: Hawk Air

Post by pelmet »

sunk wrote: Tue Oct 13, 2020 9:45 pm Yup, did the exact same thing. Warming up on a near empty tank, got busy with my two young grandkids. Departed a very small lake, just got airborne and she went very quite. Came to a stop just a few feet from shore. Felt like a complete idiot.
pilotidentity wrote: Tue Oct 13, 2020 3:03 pm I'm lucky to be here after making the same mistake, took off on an empty tank I was using just for the taxi and then forgot to switch before pouring the coals to her. When telling my story to other Beaver pilots MANY confess they have done the same.... and unlike a Cessna, a Beaver usually quits dead cold when blowing a tank, no warning with sputtering etc...
Once again, I suggest that every pilot check their killer items after finishing their pre-takeoff checklist. Make sure they are properly positioned and remain properly positioned subsequent to that final check. If you have decided not to use a checklist, check these killer items just before adding power for takeoff. I wrote about it here in the link below directly to that post yet I was mocked by several others. I bet the Hawk Air passenger/family wishes it had been done. (Note: carb heat cold is an item in that check)

viewtopic.php?f=118&t=136967&p=1102803& ... t#p1102803

Castorero wrote: Thu Oct 15, 2020 1:03 am Just when you think that you may have had an original idea, this happens... I stumbled upon a post by Pelmet in 2016 entitled "Easy to Forget"

It is well worth reading, as it touches on research as to how and why we forget to remember.
and the failure of prospective memory.
It also includes several suggested measures that can help to remember and carry out intended actions.
Once again, in the link below, you can see that a simple safety suggestion resulted in unreliable responses over the course of the thread. But it will lessen the chance of forgetting.

viewtopic.php?p=953984#p953984

However, why put yourself unnecessarily in a position where you have to remember something that will kill you if you forget. Many times we need to remember to ensure that something gets done that is beyond our control such as ensuring the snowplows have exited the runway. But how necessary is it to use a half gallon of fuel remaining in the aft tank of a Beaver. Can't one just run a tank dry in the air if it becomes absolutely necessary to use that fuel during the flight. Instead, you have now created a situation that has a high chance of causing an accident if you happen to forget.

Just set your killer items to a position to where they cannot kill you whenever possible and do a final killer item check before takeoff.
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digits_
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Re: Hawk Air

Post by digits_ »

pelmet wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 8:20 am [
Once again, I suggest that every pilot check their killer items after finishing their pre-takeoff checklist. Make sure they are properly positioned and remain properly positioned subsequent to that final check. If you have decided not to use a checklist, check these killer items just before adding power for takeoff. I wrote about it here in the link below directly to that post yet I was mocked by several others. I bet the Hawk Air passenger/family wishes it had been done. (Note: carb heat cold is an item in that check)
All those items are *in* the take off checklist already.
https://washingtonseaplanepilots.org/re ... er-POH.pdf , pdf page 37 or printed page 23.

I think most people reading this can see how a suggestion to run a checklist twice by default is a suggestion that gets mocked.
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Re: Hawk Air

Post by challenger_nami »

pelmet wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 8:20 am
Once again, in the link below, you can see that a simple safety suggestion resulted in unreliable responses over the course of the thread. But it will lessen the chance of forgetting.

viewtopic.php?p=953984#p953984

However, why put yourself unnecessarily in a position where you have to remember something that will kill you if you forget. Many times we need to remember to ensure that something gets done that is beyond our control such as ensuring the snowplows have exited the runway. But how necessary is it to use a half gallon of fuel remaining in the aft tank of a Beaver. Can't one just run a tank dry in the air if it becomes absolutely necessary to use that fuel during the flight. Instead, you have now created a situation that has a high chance of causing an accident if you happen to forget.

Just set your killer items to a position to where they cannot kill you whenever possible and do a final killer item check before takeoff.
@Pelmet,
Your points are 100% valid, and I am with you.
My experience with some participants in AvCanada has been the same. There is this small group in the forum that go above and beyond to negate whatever positive suggestion you, I and other safety minded pilots make. No matter how sane, educated, logical, legal, safe, etc ... the suggestion is... these negators just negate.

No offense to Good Float Pilots, but the group I am referring to all seem to be float pilots. Maybe it’s nature of the beast, but Float segment of aviation is infested with reckless pilots and that is why float segment of aviation has such a poor safety record.

On your know your fuel tanks thread ( found here: viewtopic.php?f=118&t=140697 ) I made the exact safe suggestion of leaving a little bit of fuel in your tanks, instead of blowing them... When possible and not violating the POH.

You can see some of the idiotic responses there.

One of the participants brought in Airbuses, and King Airs ... and his assertion was wrong about the king air fuel system.

Anyways, my strategy in dealing with that group is to very respectfully, show them that certain finger, and rock on doing what I do with the aim of improving aviation safety. Haters will hate, and negators will negate ....no matter what.

Keep rockin’
Cheers
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cncpc
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Re: Hawk Air

Post by cncpc »

challenger_nami wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 9:04 am
pelmet wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 8:20 am
Once again, in the link below, you can see that a simple safety suggestion resulted in unreliable responses over the course of the thread. But it will lessen the chance of forgetting.

viewtopic.php?p=953984#p953984

However, why put yourself unnecessarily in a position where you have to remember something that will kill you if you forget. Many times we need to remember to ensure that something gets done that is beyond our control such as ensuring the snowplows have exited the runway. But how necessary is it to use a half gallon of fuel remaining in the aft tank of a Beaver. Can't one just run a tank dry in the air if it becomes absolutely necessary to use that fuel during the flight. Instead, you have now created a situation that has a high chance of causing an accident if you happen to forget.

Just set your killer items to a position to where they cannot kill you whenever possible and do a final killer item check before takeoff.
@Pelmet,
Your points are 100% valid, and I am with you.
My experience with some participants in AvCanada has been the same. There is this small group in the forum that go above and beyond to negate whatever positive suggestion you, I and other safety minded pilots make. No matter how sane, educated, logical, legal, safe, etc ... the suggestion is... these negators just negate.

No offense to Good Float Pilots, but the group I am referring to all seem to be float pilots. Maybe it’s nature of the beast, but Float segment of aviation is infested with reckless pilots and that is why float segment of aviation has such a poor safety record.

On your know your fuel tanks thread ( found here: viewtopic.php?f=118&t=140697 ) I made the exact safe suggestion of leaving a little bit of fuel in your tanks, instead of blowing them... When possible and not violating the POH.

You can see some of the idiotic responses there.

One of the participants brought in Airbuses, and King Airs ... and his assertion was wrong about the king air fuel system.

Anyways, my strategy in dealing with that group is to very respectfully, show them that certain finger, and rock on doing what I do with the aim of improving aviation safety. Haters will hate, and negators will negate ....no matter what.

Keep rockin’
Cheers
You rival Trump in your capacity to construct a very self serving history of your own self declared greatness and noble objectives. Most people who criticize you don't accept your polishing your own turds.
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TeePeeCreeper
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Re: Hawk Air

Post by TeePeeCreeper »

[/quote] Pelmet,
Your points are 100% valid, and I am with you.
My experience with some participants in AvCanada has been the same. There is this small group in the forum that go above and beyond to negate whatever positive suggestion you, I and other safety minded pilots make. No matter how sane, educated, logical, legal, safe, etc ... the suggestion is... these negators just negate.

No offense to Good Float Pilots, but the group I am referring to all seem to be float pilots. Maybe it’s nature of the beast, but Float segment of aviation is infested with reckless pilots and that is why float segment of aviation has such a poor safety record.

On your know your fuel tanks thread ( found here: viewtopic.php?f=118&t=140697 ) I made the exact safe suggestion of leaving a little bit of fuel in your tanks, instead of blowing them... When possible and not violating the POH.

You can see some of the idiotic responses there.

One of the participants brought in Airbuses, and King Airs ... and his assertion was wrong about the king air fuel system.

Anyways, my strategy in dealing with that group is to very respectfully, show them that certain finger, and rock on doing what I do with the aim of improving aviation safety. Haters will hate, and negators will negate ....no matter what.

Keep rockin’
Cheers
[/quote]


Very interesting comment to make. Are you also 100% behind Pelmet when it comes to making personal attacks in regards to a fellow aviator's divorce?

Pelmet brought up "killer items".

Apparently now we have a "new term" akin to "weather bomb" and "super spreader events"!

I can't help but wonder where the regular posters went! This site has lost significant knowledge and traffic. I wonder if sheeple praising sheeple may be a cause?
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