Use The Park Brake

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photofly
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Re: Use The Park Brake

Post by photofly »

rookiepilot wrote: Fri Oct 30, 2020 3:33 pm A checklist will work fine until you are flying hard IFR single pilot. Then glancing at a checklist isn't going to save your butt.
Going to suggest that IMC is probably the one scenario where you don’t need to look outside much. just sayin’.
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Cliff Jumper
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Re: Use The Park Brake

Post by Cliff Jumper »

Use the parking brake when?

Every time you stop?

Or only those times where you intended to be completely fixated?

How can you identify ahead of time the occasions where you will be fixated?

Should you also rely on the parking brake while you're heads down for a prolonged time?
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pelmet
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Re: Use The Park Brake

Post by pelmet »

Cliff Jumper wrote: Fri Oct 30, 2020 4:48 pm Use the parking brake when?

Every time you stop?

Or only those times where you intended to be completely fixated?

How can you identify ahead of time the occasions where you will be fixated?

Should you also rely on the parking brake while you're heads down for a prolonged time?
The best answer I can give is like in so many situations we encounter.......when common sense dictates.
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rookiepilot
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Re: Use The Park Brake

Post by rookiepilot »

photofly wrote: Fri Oct 30, 2020 4:40 pm
rookiepilot wrote: Fri Oct 30, 2020 3:33 pm A checklist will work fine until you are flying hard IFR single pilot. Then glancing at a checklist isn't going to save your butt.
Going to suggest that IMC is probably the one scenario where you don’t need to look outside much. just sayin’.
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Re: Use The Park Brake

Post by Aviatard »

Parking brakes “don’t work” sounds a lot the the law that fuel gauges don’t work.
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Re: Use The Park Brake

Post by youhavecontrol »

I don't fault someone for wanting to adjust the seat prior to taxi with the engine running. I've done that many times. Sometimes you think you have the seat set how you like it, only to realize you want to tweak it just so once you start looking around to taxi. Nothing wrong with that, and it certainly doesn't mean the pilot wasn't prepared. I'm 6'4" and it takes me time to get adjusted exactly how I like in small aircraft. Often I have to re-adjust once the aircraft warms up and I take my jacket off, meaning I take my seat belt off, slide the seat a bit and remove my jacked, all with the engine running. Does nobody else have to do this? I most definitely use the park brake while I do it because keeping my feet on the brakes the entire time is tricky. This doesn't mean I'm unaware of what's going on outside... but I still rely on the park brake to hold the aircraft for the moment.

I agree the with the OP that the park brake should have been set, and on most aircraft it's quite reasonable to expect the park brake pressure to hold for the 10 seconds or less it takes to prop yourself up to shift your seat (which you can't do with your feet on the brakes in most aircraft I've flown). I agree that he should have been glancing outside as much as able, but at the same time if you can't trust the brake pressure to hold for 10 seconds, your plane is probably a piece of crap to begin with and you shouldn't fly it.

The whole park brake discussion about do/don't is so strange to me. It's like debating over the use of sunglasses. Is it sunny? ..sure use them, but wait! What if it's night, then it's harder to see?!?! But if the sun is burning your eyes... yeah, it's probably good to use them.

There's a time and place for this stuff and a certain level of awareness required in everything we do. I trust autopilot enough to read some SOP's during cruise, but it doesn't mean I'm going to take a nap.
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Big Pistons Forever
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Re: Use The Park Brake

Post by Big Pistons Forever »

The single engine Cessna's have a mechanical part brake. When you pull the handle you are pulling a cable which mechanically holds the deflected pedal down. The problem is sometimes the the brake won't fully release because the cable binds. I have had this happen enough times I never use the park brake and discourage my students not to either. Also if not properly rigged you can have one brake only partial engage.

I think pilots can walk and chew gum at the same time and so they should be able to hold the toe brakes with their feet and do other things. Even if the park brake worked perfectly the airplane can still slide if the surface is slippery so for that reason I always emphasized the need to limit head down time and come back to heads up frequently to keep SA

Finally I noted one poster said he was head down selecting one tank instead of just leaving the selector on both. Personally I think this FTU-ism is silly. No Cessna POH requires this "check" and there AFAIK never been a case where a high wing Cessna ever spontaneously stopped feeding fuel from one tank. The only time this scenario has happened was immediately after the fuel system had been disturbed, usually because of a wing removal and reinstallation. So yes immediately after this kind o major maintenance you should run the engine at runup RPM for several minutes on each tank to ensure everything got reconnected. After that follow the POH which specifies both tanks for start and run-up and recheck both for the pretakeoff check

In any case this check on any fuel injected Cessna single is completely pointless.

If you want to fuss about fuel selectors then check the fuel on off valve on Cessna C 150 and C 152's. I would say in probably half of the C 150's I have seen this valve is frozen in the on position. making it impossible to turn off the fuel in the event of a fire.
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groncher
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Re: Use The Park Brake

Post by groncher »

How do we know the incident pilot didn't have the parking brake on? Maybe they did and when their foot slipped off the brakes thought, "it's ok I set the parking brake". Maybe they should have looked out the window as soon as the feet came off the brakes.
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photofly
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Re: Use The Park Brake

Post by photofly »

groncher wrote: Sun Nov 01, 2020 6:25 am How do we know the incident pilot didn't have the parking brake on? Maybe they did and when their foot slipped off the brakes thought, "it's ok I set the parking brake". Maybe they should have looked out the window as soon as the feet came off the brakes.
Because he or she is on an aviation forum somewhere blaming the instructor who didn't teach to use the parking brake.
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PilotDAR
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Re: Use The Park Brake

Post by PilotDAR »

Personally, I choose not to use the parking brake on anything other than my car and my ATV, but that's my choice, I don't impose upon others. I feel that as long as I am applying toe pressure on the pedals while stationary, it serves as a reminder to me that I am responsible for the plane remaining stationary, rather than a parking brake system I trust less than fuel quantity indicators.

What is important to me, and I do impose on anyone I train, is that if you need to do ground runs, head in while stopped, etc., point the plane toward the biggest open space you can find, so that if the plane moves, it has less [no] opportunity to hurt something else, and hopefully itself - especially if running high power.
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rookiepilot
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Re: Use The Park Brake

Post by rookiepilot »

How do we also know the plane didn't roll 200 feet with the pilot not noticing, head down, before hitting the other aircraft?

And if it was only 10 feet, why is the head down at all, before first moving to a place well clear of aircraft and people?

Maybe not using a parking brake isn't the issue.

More Checklists don't fix poor Situational awareness.

Engine: START.

Aircraft: MOVE AWAY FROM OTHER PLANES, PEOPLE, BUILDINGS, FLOWERS AND PETS, BEFORE STUDYING CHECKIST WITHOUT LOOKING OUTSIDE FOR 5 MINUTES.
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Re: Use The Park Brake

Post by rxl »

rookiepilot wrote: Sun Nov 01, 2020 7:11 am How do we also know the plane didn't roll 200 feet with the pilot not noticing, head down, before hitting the other aircraft?

And if it was only 10 feet, why is the head down at all, before first moving to a place well clear of aircraft and people?

Maybe not using a parking brake isn't the issue.

More Checklists don't fix poor Situational awareness.

Engine: START.

Aircraft: MOVE AWAY FROM OTHER PLANES, PEOPLE, BUILDINGS, FLOWERS AND PETS, BEFORE STUDYING CHECKIST WITHOUT LOOKING OUTSIDE FOR 5 MINUTES.

BINGO!
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pelmet
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Re: Use The Park Brake

Post by pelmet »

rxl wrote: Sun Nov 01, 2020 7:36 am
rookiepilot wrote: Sun Nov 01, 2020 7:11 am How do we also know the plane didn't roll 200 feet with the pilot not noticing, head down, before hitting the other aircraft?

And if it was only 10 feet, why is the head down at all, before first moving to a place well clear of aircraft and people?

Maybe not using a parking brake isn't the issue.

More Checklists don't fix poor Situational awareness.

Engine: START.

Aircraft: MOVE AWAY FROM OTHER PLANES, PEOPLE, BUILDINGS, FLOWERS AND PETS, BEFORE STUDYING CHECKIST WITHOUT LOOKING OUTSIDE FOR 5 MINUTES.

BINGO!
Well maybe the airplane did move 200 feet. But it wouldn't have if the pilot had simply done what I recommend.

Look at what was said by the person recommending to never use the parking brake. He appears to say that a pilot can somehow prevent an incident by moving off somewhere, away from various objects, before not looking outside for five minutes. As if the aircraft won't go into the grass or something else. Yes I realize that it was an exaggerated statement but 20 seconds is a long time.

Beware of who you take your advice from. And if you can't absolutely be guaranteed to be able to effectively use the toe brakes, use the park brake when dealing with necessary distractions for any significant amount of time(unless it is realistically considered to be unreliable in which case an alternative safe plan should be used).
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Re: Use The Park Brake

Post by rookiepilot »

Nah.

Not feeding this.......starve it of oxygen. :mrgreen:
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Re: Use The Park Brake

Post by tsgarp »

This incident, like all other incidents, does not have a single simple cause. It is the culmination of a chain of events which could have been broken at many points. The first line of defence is to not fixate inside, the second is to set the parking brake, the third is to keep your feet on the brakes, the fourth is to aim the aircraft into an open space.
In aviation, systems fail and mistakes are made (the human part of the system fails). The trick is to have safety layers, such that when one part of the system fails, another part catches the error.
On the off chance that the pilot from the incident reads this, don’t let the discussion on this thread get you down. Everyone here has made a mistake, most have been lucky enough that they didn’t have to pay full price for it. Learn from the experience and carry on.
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digits_
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Re: Use The Park Brake

Post by digits_ »

Do any of the older members know when the 172's parking brake started to get a bad rep? Did that happen in the couple of years after the first models hit the market, or did it only happen after 20 years?

Are the new 172's parking brake as bad?
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Re: Use The Park Brake

Post by photofly »

pelmet wrote: Sun Nov 01, 2020 7:52 am

Well maybe the airplane did move 200 feet. But it wouldn't have if the pilot had simply done what I recommend.

Look at what was said by the person recommending to never use the parking brake.
Do you use wheel chocks? If so, why not use the parking brake instead? It would save all that messing about with bits of wood or triangular bits of rubber.
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Re: Use The Park Brake

Post by challenger_nami »

.


Here is @Photofly and his logic ... or lack of IT.



.
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pelmet
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Re: Use The Park Brake

Post by pelmet »

challenger_nami wrote: Sun Nov 01, 2020 12:02 pm Here is @Photofly and his logic ... or lack of IT.
There are times where the discussion becomes obscure or unrelated stuff such as ....
Cliff Jumper wrote: Fri Oct 30, 2020 4:48 pm Use the parking brake when?

Every time you stop?

Or only those times where you intended to be completely fixated?
photofly wrote: Sun Nov 01, 2020 11:16 am Do you use wheel chocks? If so, why not use the parking brake instead? It would save all that messing about with bits of wood or triangular bits of rubber.
When the engine is running, use the park brake when dealing with necessary distractions for any significant amount of time(unless it is realistically considered to be unreliable in which case an alternative safe plan should be used).
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Re: Use The Park Brake

Post by challenger_nami »

@Pelmet
Exactly. My experience has been the same. and sadly, it’s usually the same individuals who come up with preposterous arguments to prove that the original poster’s safety suggestion was somehow invalid.

It’s difficult, if not impossible to win against ignorance, arrogance and dumbness... my strategy/suggestion is to NOT even engage/respond to these individuals when they come up with their BS, just to shut you down.


In the Companies I have flown for, PARKING BRAKE is usually one of the first items of the checklist, usually in CAPS and BOLD.


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Last edited by challenger_nami on Sun Nov 01, 2020 1:24 pm, edited 6 times in total.
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