Get safe aircraft control before talking to ATC

[digits_]

With inexperienced pilots the first thing I always had to beat out of them is not to start yapping on the radio as soon as airborne. I guess that's how the schools train them and it's wrong.

What, everysingleone? Can we have an emoji for instructor-bashing, please? Who the @#$! are "the schools"? Some Bilderberg style secret CABAL of evil-doers who all agree on how to teach your intake wrong, just to annoy you?

As an instructor, you should be quite proud that apparently students fly exactly like you taught them for almost eternity. A screw up by a commercial pilot 25 years later, over 30 PPCs passed, yet the root cause of the incident is always bad instruction during primary training!

[Big Pistons Forever]

Personably I think this argument rather misses the point. Survival after an engine failure is not contingent on getting a radio call out it is on having a plan. The radio will not usually figure into that plan and if it does it should , IMO be well down the list

How many GA pilots actually do a mental brief of the immediate actions for the EFATO before takeoff including a predetermine plan on where they are going to point the airplane if the engine becomes disinterested in further toil. ? My bet is not many

Carrying on that theme given that approximately 75 % of engine failures are directly the result of pilot actions or inactions, How many GA pilots really understand what they are looking for in the runup ? My guess is a lot of them mindless do a rote reading of the checklist items without really thinking about what they are seeing.

[valleyboy]

A screw up by a commercial pilot 25 years later, over 30 PPCs passed, yet the root cause of the incident is always bad instruction during primary training!

really! read the post

There something wrong with the current system. The lack or stick and rudder skills is rampant but the knowledge of rules has taken priority over basic skills. Schools are concentrating on being puppy mills and first priority is to turn out "commercial" pilots. The system does not give the private pilot hobbyist much support after passing that check ride. The "club" atmosphere is almost nonexistent with the ability to use club instructors to check you out in your "brand new" old conventional gear aircraft. Mentoring by club members, a lot of professional types were there because flying their cub or C195 and such was more satisfying than their heavy metal. Yes times change but not necessarily for the best.

Obsession for rules and black and white thinking is very confusing for me. There is a lot of grey in them there skies.

[shimmydampner]

I'm flying out of Billy Bishop right now, so an EFATO pretty much means drowning. I would posit that a mayday call is rather important when you're looking at ditching in 1° water in the next twenty seconds, and that it may in fact take precedence over establishing control of the aircraft.

One day when you have some experience you'll hopefully realize the absurdity of this statement. Ditching is a very survivable event, in the order of 88%. Certainly much more survivable than a stall/spin scenario, which is much more common and significantly more fatal. Keeping the aircraft under control is ALWAYS more important than talking on the radio.

[RedAndWhiteBaron]

One day when you have some experience you'll hopefully realize the absurdity of this statement. Ditching is a very survivable event, in the order of 88%. Certainly much more survivable than a stall/spin scenario, which is much more common and significantly more fatal. Keeping the aircraft under control is ALWAYS more important than talking on the radio.

Oh, you're probably right. But something else to consider - the impact with the water is not the problem. 90% of ditching fatalities survived the initial impact (ish, TC did a study a while back on it). Most of the rest drowned. In my scenario (small single piston climbing out over water), I'm not carrying a PFD, and this time of year, cold shock could prevent you from even treading water. Survival is entirely dependent on the prompt arrival of help. You've probably got 15 minutes if you wind up floating in the water this time of year. After two minutes, you're probably unable to operate a PLB or the aircraft's ELT as you've lost all dexterity in your hands.

Sure, it's not necessarily smart, what I suggested. I'm probably just being a contrarian. But - some scenarios do change the priority of calling for help.

[shimmydampner]

No, they don't. Obviously you believe you have this all figured out, but you are not seeing the big picture. Just because your aircraft and operations are simple enough that you can (hopefully) successfully do a mayday call AND not stall the aircraft at the same time, doesn't mean that you aren't aviating first and communicating last. You haven't reinvented something that has served aviators well for many years. It just means that you have a base level of ability to fly a very simple aircraft in a very simple procedure, neither of which require a great deal of skill or concentration. But don't get it twisted; all the mayday calls in the world won't do you any good if you allow the aircraft to depart controlled flight. Priority and importance are not the same thing. And don't confuse the A.N.C. adage with an order of operations. It is an order of priorities. You can and should be able to do all 3 at the same time, most of the time. However, as the OP was (I believe) trying to point out, there will be times such as catastrophic failures that seriously compromise aircraft performance, that require great concentration in order to maintain control. Especially if they coincide with complex procedures that are required for obstacle or terrain clearance. During these times, it is not only wise, but it may become imperative to put the lower priority items aside temporarily in order to devote full brain power to the top priority. You will find when you get into more complex aircraft and operations that there may be SOPs to this end, such as not performing any actions (including radio calls) until a certain safe altitude is reached. Getting a mayday call out may be of greater importance in some scenarios than others, but never at the expense of maintaining control of the airplane, which is always the top priority because it will impact your survivability far more than any radio call. Unless of course you believe that in your scenario you can make a mayday call, and recover from a low level spin in time to make a successful ditching. But it's probably way easier and less fatal to avoid that whole spin part.

[RedAndWhiteBaron]

Nah I don't have it all figured out. Half the point is to convince myself I'm wrong, because that's been proven countless times.

A bunch of the fatalities listed in this thread likely happened because someone was operating under a somewhat similar argument to the one I am making. Better to start an argument on the Internet now to convince myself, and not start an argument with physics and the ground where it will kill me.

Essentially the thinking is this: I will likely survive the impact, but I will not survive swimming to shore, and if I don't call for help, I'm swimming (unless I smartly ditch close to a boat). I know that all evidence suggests I'm wrong but it's hard to overcome that logic.

I did once fall through ice many moons ago. Quite an eye opener. Very painful. Kind of like ten thousand thumbtacks piercing you at the same time, everywhere. Perhaps it's a latent fear of icy water talking.

[photofly]

I'm not carrying a PFD, and this time of year, cold shock could prevent you from even treading water.

Why don't you buy one? Here's one with bells and whistles (half literally) and it's $82.
https://www.aircraftspruce.ca/catalog/p ... ckkey=9202

You can get one in 'crew orange', if that floats your boat, ha ha.

[Scuderia]

But something else to consider - the impact with the water is not the problem. 90% of ditching fatalities survived the initial impact (ish, TC did a study a while back on it). Most of the rest drowned. In my scenario (small single piston climbing out over water), I'm not carrying a PFD, and this time of year, cold shock could prevent you from even treading water. Survival is entirely dependent on the prompt arrival of help. You've probably got 15 minutes if you wind up floating in the water this time of year. After two minutes, you're probably unable to operate a PLB or the aircraft's ELT as you've lost all dexterity in your hands.

Essentially the thinking is this: I will likely survive the impact, but I will not survive swimming to shore, and if I don't call for help, I'm swimming (unless I smartly ditch close to a boat). I know that all evidence suggests I'm wrong but it's hard to overcome that logic.

I hope you can overcome that logic.

"if I don't call for help, I'm swimming"

Wrong - that is not certain. It is in fact quite unlikely. Don't fall into the trap of thinking that rescue will not come without a MAYDAY call. If you're in a control zone with ATS, they will have eyes on you one way or another. They will see what is happening and activate response. Worst case, they're looking somewhere else for a brief time and your MAYDAY call would turn their attention back to you only seconds before they would have noticed anyways.

Sure, it's not necessarily smart, what I suggested. I'm probably just being a contrarian. But - some scenarios do change the priority of calling for help.

I am thinking hard but cannot think of a situation where one should (when there is a choice) reduce/relinquish control of the aircraft in favour of making a MAYDAY call.
1. Collision is imminent and control is impossible to regain, in which case all effort should be towards still controlling the aircraft towards a more favourable impact. If you're that low, someone is watching and help will be activated no sooner than if you make a MAYDAY call or not.
2. Control can be regained/maintained in which case make the MAYDAY call after after a reasonable flight path has been achieved, eg. glide after EFATO.

I highly, highly recommend you wear a wearable, inflatable PFD if you are spending time over water in positions where returning to shore is questionable. They are relatively inexpensive (less than $200) and have compact forms that let you forget you are even wearing one.

[Conflicting Traffic]

Essentially the thinking is this: I will likely survive the impact, but I will not survive swimming to shore, and if I don't call for help, I'm swimming (unless I smartly ditch close to a boat). I know that all evidence suggests I'm wrong but it's hard to overcome that logic.

This is only logic in the sense that you've started from a faulty premise and "logic"ed your way to a (therefore faulty) conclusion.

I will likely survive the impact.

No, you likely won't. If the aircraft is not under control, you will likely die on impact. If you survive impact, you will likely be incapacitated.

I did once fall through ice many moons ago. Quite an eye opener. Very painful. Kind of like ten thousand thumbtacks piercing you at the same time, everywhere. Perhaps it's a latent fear of icy water talking.

As unpleasant as that likely was, you survived. Now imagine waking disoriented after 30 seconds of unconsciousness in a mangled, sinking airplane with two broken legs, a broken arm, a couple of teeth broken off, an eye swollen shut, a concussion, and also in the icy water.

Going into the water under control gives you several advantages:

1. You've bought an extra 20-30 seconds of dry time (stalling/spinning/spiraling all get you to the water faster).
2. You can maneuver the aircraft closer to shore or alongside a boat.
3. The landing/ditching will be a rough, noisy landing, but will leave you uninjured and therefore give you a fighting chance at survival.

If you aren't under control and especially if you stall/spin, you've lost all of these.

[RedAndWhiteBaron]

I hope you can overcome that logic.

"if I don't call for help, I'm swimming"

Wrong - that is not certain. It is in fact quite unlikely. Don't fall into the trap of thinking that rescue will not come without a MAYDAY call. If you're in a control zone with ATS, they will have eyes on you one way or another. They will see what is happening and activate response. Worst case, they're looking somewhere else for a brief time and your MAYDAY call would turn their attention back to you only seconds before they would have noticed anyways.

I have also considered this - I'm training out of YTZ and there are police, fire, and EMS marine units that will come. But if I don't call for help, help may come quickly enough. If I do call for help, help will come quickly enough.

Sure, it's not necessarily smart, what I suggested. I'm probably just being a contrarian. But - some scenarios do change the priority of calling for help.

I am thinking hard but cannot think of a situation where one should (when there is a choice) reduce/relinquish control of the aircraft in favour of making a MAYDAY call.
1. Collision is imminent and control is impossible to regain, in which case all effort should be towards still controlling the aircraft towards a more favourable impact. If you're that low, someone is watching and help will be activated no sooner than if you make a MAYDAY call or not.
2. Control can be regained/maintained in which case make the MAYDAY call after after a reasonable flight path has been achieved, eg. glide after EFATO.

I may have forgotten to elucidate - the aircraft is not yet out of control - you've had an engine failure. If I was looking at a stall/spin, that would also very much change the risk calculation.

I highly, highly recommend you wear a wearable, inflatable PFD if you are spending time over water in positions where returning to shore is questionable. They are relatively inexpensive (less than $200) and have compact forms that let you forget you are even wearing one.

Been meaning to actually, both as an aviator and a boater. I was hoping to negotiate a discount at the boat show this year.. but well...

Think about this: my goal is to become a bush pilot. There is no ATC. There is nobody watching you. Those twenty seconds may be your last and only chance to call for help.

[RedAndWhiteBaron]

Essentially the thinking is this: I will likely survive the impact, but I will not survive swimming to shore, and if I don't call for help, I'm swimming (unless I smartly ditch close to a boat). I know that all evidence suggests I'm wrong but it's hard to overcome that logic.

This is only logic in the sense that you've started from a faulty premise and "logic"ed your way to a (therefore faulty) conclusion.

I can work with that - what exactly is my faulty premise?

I will likely survive the impact.

No, you likely won't. If the aircraft is not under control, you will likely die on impact. If you survive impact, you will likely be incapacitated.

I can also work with that - care to back that up with a citation?

I did once fall through ice many moons ago. Quite an eye opener. Very painful. Kind of like ten thousand thumbtacks piercing you at the same time, everywhere. Perhaps it's a latent fear of icy water talking.

As unpleasant as that likely was, you survived. Now imagine waking disoriented after 30 seconds of unconsciousness in a mangled, sinking airplane with two broken legs, a broken arm, a couple of teeth broken off, an eye swollen shut, a concussion, and also in the icy water.

I will assume that I would not survive in that scenario. There may be one or two people on this forum who can provide a testament to the contrary. And I've had a couple of concussions in my time unrelated to airplanes.

Going into the water under control gives you several advantages:
<snip>

Well if you're going into the water, you're not under control, but I cannot argue with your points there.

[shimmydampner]

Well if you're going into the water, you're not under control

What are you talking about? A ditching is a controlled landing on water.

I may have forgotten to elucidate - the aircraft is not yet out of control - you've had an engine failure.

Well then, you're not putting communication ahead of controlling the aircraft. Congratulations, you are in fact keeping your priorities in the correct order. So why are you continuing to argue the contrary?

[shimmydampner]

Think about this: my goal is to become a bush pilot. There is no ATC. There is nobody watching you. Those twenty seconds may be your last and only chance to call for help.

Well, that's certainly not always true, but let's assume it is. In that case, who are you making that call to? If you are truly deep in the bush, no one will hear you.

Look, I don't think anyone here is suggesting that you should abandon mayday calls when they are appropriate. However, you should ABSOLUTELY NEVER abandon control of the aircraft in order to make a mayday call. If you believe otherwise, you are not fit to be a pilot. Period.

[RedAndWhiteBaron]

Well if you're going into the water, you're not under control

What are you talking about? A ditching is a controlled landing on water.

My bad - "control" by my definition includes control of the engine.

Think about this: my goal is to become a bush pilot. There is no ATC. There is nobody watching you. Those twenty seconds may be your last and only chance to call for help.

Well, that's certainly not always true, but let's assume it is. In that case, who are you making that call to? If you are truly deep in the bush, no one will hear you.

Look, I don't think anyone here is suggesting that you should abandon mayday calls when they are appropriate. However, you should ABSOLUTELY NEVER abandon control of the aircraft in order to make a mayday call. If you believe otherwise, you are not fit to be a pilot. Period.

Well that's harsh. But you have point - nobody will hear me anyway. It is likely that if anyone can hear me, someone can see me.

[PilotDAR]

No, they don't. Obviously you believe you have this all figured out, but you are not seeing the big picture. Just because your aircraft and operations are simple enough that you can (hopefully) successfully do a mayday call AND not stall the aircraft at the same time, doesn't mean that you aren't aviating first and communicating last. You haven't reinvented something that has served aviators well for many years. It just means that you have a base level of ability to fly a very simple aircraft in a very simple procedure, neither of which require a great deal of skill or concentration. But don't get it twisted; all the mayday calls in the world won't do you any good if you allow the aircraft to depart controlled flight. Priority and importance are not the same thing. And don't confuse the A.N.C. adage with an order of operations. It is an order of priorities. You can and should be able to do all 3 at the same time, most of the time. However, as the OP was (I believe) trying to point out, there will be times such as catastrophic failures that seriously compromise aircraft performance, that require great concentration in order to maintain control. Especially if they coincide with complex procedures that are required for obstacle or terrain clearance. During these times, it is not only wise, but it may become imperative to put the lower priority items aside temporarily in order to devote full brain power to the top priority. You will find when you get into more complex aircraft and operations that there may be SOPs to this end, such as not performing any actions (including radio calls) until a certain safe altitude is reached. Getting a mayday call out may be of greater importance in some scenarios than others, but never at the expense of maintaining control of the airplane, which is always the top priority because it will impact your survivability far more than any radio call. Unless of course you believe that in your scenario you can make a mayday call, and recover from a low level spin in time to make a successful ditching. But it's probably way easier and less fatal to avoid that whole spin part.

This.

And to add: If you are unwilling to accept the risk of ditching, avoid flying beyond gliding distance over water. If ditching is a risk, wear a PFD, I do, and take an underwater egress course. Knowing that overflight of some areas of land may make ditching the preferred action anyway (following the lake shore between Scarborough and Hamilton). When I plan a winter overwater flight, I wear either a wet or dry immersion suit.

Yes, at YTZ, calling a mayday to the tower prior to ditching could provide responders with a couple of minutes more advanced notice of an emergency [than the tower simply noticing]. But, if it's just quit, you're already busy, the brain power to make a mayday call may be manageable. But if you call "mayday", you begin a process where the tower will prioritize communication with you, and further distract you from what you should be doing first. The airplane is decelerating, and you're not really entering a good glide, while you fiddle knobs. The plane is not using words to tell you how to fly it safely next, but the controller will be using words to request you divert your attention to providing more information. Are you prepared to completely ignore repeated questions over the radio, to correctly fly a silent gliding plane? Sometimes you have to say "stop talking" to a passenger so you can concentrate, fair enough. Best then to not ask the controller to start talking to you, until you have things in hand. Once you have assured control, and a good glide, by all means, make a radio call.

I have never used the word "Mayday" on the radio. I have (to YTZ tower decades back) said: "My engine has just stopped, and I'm landing there now". The reply was: "The airport is yours.". The only other radio communication I recall as I glided to a landing on 26 was the controller telling someone else to go around. I focused on my forced landing, with a happy outcome. (By the way, add alcohol to your avgas as directed by the POH for winter flying.). I'm sure that the controller was paying close attention to what I was doing, but he did not need any further information, and did not distract me with any more communication.

[shimmydampner]

My bad - "control" by my definition includes control of the engine.

Well, your definition is inaccurate.

Well that's harsh.

If you think that's bad, you should see what happens to people who, through ignorance, incompetent or a combination thereof, lose control of their airplane.

Look, if you truly want to be a bush pilot, you'll be entering a lane of aviation that is extremely unforgiving and relies heavily on good decision making. Until you get into the larger and more complex, IFR capable bush machines, there will be little to no procedural guidance. You would be well served to reflect on why keeping the aircraft within the controlled flight envelope and knowing exactly where in three dimensional space you are at all times are prioritized much more highly than communicating in this avenue of aviation. Bush flying doesn't suffer fools. Try not to be one.

[digits_]

I have never used the word "Mayday" on the radio. I have (to YTZ tower decades back) said: "My engine has just stopped, and I'm landing there now".

Why didn't you in this situation if I may ask?

[Aviatard]

Bush flying doesn't suffer fools. Try not to be one.

From the tough love school of aviation. Well said.

[Big Pistons Forever]

There was a fatal accident involving a British Piper Tomahawk, which sadly is the poster child for what happens if you priotize getting the Mayday call out instead of flying the airplane. Report link is below and I copied a section from it as well with the relevant parts bolded



https://assets.digital.cabinet-office.g ... _06-13.pdf


At an estimated 200 ft aal, the engine suffered a rapid
and significant power loss. The pilot transmitted a
MAYDAY call stating that he had an engine failure.
The passenger stated that the engine behaved as if
the throttle had been closed suddenly. One witness,
who was standing on the airfield at Barton, stated that
he saw a quantity of blue or black smoke around the
forward fuselage area just before the aircraft rolled to
the left. He indicated that this was a brief event and that
there was no smoke or fire visible during the aircraft’s
descent. Several witnesses stated that the aircraft’s nose
remained in the climb attitude until the aircraft rolled to
the left to more than 60° of bank. Two witnesses stated
that the aircraft appeared to slow noticeably before
the wing dropped. The aircraft’s nose then dropped
and the aircraft entered a steep descent, turning to
the left, before it struck two houses and came to rest
between them.