Beaver down off Saturna island (Updates)

[Widow]

Possibly, but the conclusion (from all parties) was that AQW was not a very hard landing - most of the damage was on rollover, not on impact. There was no jamming, open or closed, of any other door.

[Sidebar]

I'm curious ... since this accident appears not to have been the result of mechanical failure, and the objective should be to prevent the accident first, and improve survivability second (IMHO of course), why is there no mention in the TSB release of the 1993 Safety Study of Piloting Skills, Abilities, and Knowledge in Seaplane Operations?

Widow, it appears their focus is likely to be survivability, as they they do mention "A SAFETY STUDY OF SURVIVABILITY IN SEAPLANE ACCIDENTS", Report Number SA9401

This news release, the photo gallery, and previously published material (Safety Study SA9401 and TSB Report A04W0114) can be found on the TSB website at http://www.bst-tsb.gc.ca.

[Lost Lake]

As I recall you are legal to fly VFR under daylight rules until the center of the disk of the sun is six degrees below the horizon or something close to that.

Just for information purposes, they have amended the definition to "twighlight". Open to interpretation. With GPS on most planes, one of the features is actual sunset at a selected point. Your operator and TC will know exactly when this is. For operators, it is a way to squeeze 1 more flight from you, relying on the "official" sunset/rise as proof they used due diligence.

Been there, seen that!

[Cat Driver]

If you can't see because it is to dark " official darkness " is meaningless.

[pilotidentity]

If the conditions are right you could find yourself landing 20 minutes before legal grounding time and not be able to make out logs and sticks in the water. Add a light drizzle in there with no wind and things get pretty grey.

I feel if you make it a rule to be back home and landing at SUNSET then at least if you have an engine failure or other problem (poor weather at the destination) then you aren't dealing with darkness as well. You might have a chance to see a safer spot to put down close to shore, and if response time is quick an aircraft already airborne and on your route (good chance on the coast) could perhaps have enough light to spot you.

Hate to have something go wrong 10 minutes before "official" darkness.

There is very little risk in the nice warm seat of a dispatcher.

[Widow]

Commitment And Forgiveness - Reflections On Aviation Safety

One-year anniversary of Saturna crash a time to reflect on improvements and challenges to float-plane safety

Larry Pynn – November 29, 2010

Every fatal plane crash is a tragedy worthy of public scrutiny. But there was something about the crash of a commercial float plane off Saturna Island one year ago today that would shake up industry and government where other crashes had not.

Maybe because a maternity doctor and her infant daughter were among the six passengers who perished when the Seair Seaplanes de Havilland Beaver plunged into the frigid waters of Lyall Harbour.

Maybe because some of the passengers might still be alive if known safety issues had been acted upon years ago.

Either way, the crash would lead to significant improvements in float-plane safety on the B.C. coast.

"We've come a long ways," Martin Eley, Transport Canada's director-general of civil aviation, told The Vancouver Sun from Ottawa. "This is not a flash in the pan."

For the family and friends of those who died in the Saturna crash, their feelings have slowly evolved from heartbreak and anguish to a commitment to hold industry and government accountable for meaningful long-term safety improvements.

And, as part of that emotional evolution, comes forgiveness for the Seair pilot, Francois St. Pierre, who was among about 150 people who attended a memorial service for the crash victims Saturday afternoon at the Saturna Island community hall.

Not yet back to work, St. Pierre arrived and departed as a passenger aboard a Seair float plane.

"I do want him to feel he's forgiven," said Patrick Morrissey, who lost his doctor-wife, Kerry, and their six-month-old daughter, Sarah, in the crash. "It's the right thing to do, not only intellectually, but I feel it. My heart goes out to him.

"I think he was pleasantly surprised by the response of people. It was a positive experience for him."

The Sun contacted Seair operations manager Terry Hiebert on Sunday to request an interview with St. Pierre. Hiebert said the pilot was reflecting on events and had declined to comment. Organizers of the memorial had asked the news media not to attend.

"It was nice to meet the people yesterday," Hiebert said. "They were glad to see Francois and spoke volumes of his character.

"But I never like celebrating a tragedy -- and this was a tragedy."

The B.C. ferry stopped over the crash site to observe a moment of silence. A bench was dedicated to those who died in the crash. The Kerry and Sarah Morrissey (Telford) Award has also been created to allow resident doctors in the University of B.C.'s global health program to travel to Peru to continue her work with the Santa Clotilde Health Centre.

Also attending the memorial service was Bill Yearwood, regional manager of the federal transportation safety board. "It was really good, a heartwarming event," he said Sunday. "It was all positive."

The full safety board report into the Saturna crash is expected in a few months.

Interim findings show that the pilot attempted a takeoff to the southeast -- facing into the wind and into the harbour.

Once airborne, the aircraft remained below the surrounding terrain and during a turn to the left, stalled, and collided with the water. The aircraft's engine and controls appeared to be in good working order before the impact. Two doors jammed in the crash, and the plane sank in 14 metres of waters before six passengers could get out.

Also killed were Richard Haskitt and Cindy Schafer, part-owners of the Lighthouse Pub on Saturna, Thomas Glenn of White Rock, and Catherine White-Holman of Vancouver. Glenn's wife, Barb, and the pilot survived with injuries.

Safety initiatives over the past year have included: federal development of a new floatplane safety website and public safety brochures; increased use of satellite tracking systems to find downed airplanes faster; emergency pop-out windows and improved door handles for Beaver aircraft; and, through Ottawa's facilitation, launch of the Float Plane Operators Association.

By all accounts, The Sun's coverage of the issue, especially the six-part series, Broken Wings, played an important role in raising public awareness, including among pilots on how to survive a crash in water.

Said Yearwood: "Since all the publicity through your series, Broken Wings, we've had a few accidents where pilots have survived and were aware of some of the challenges of escaping under water and reported they were wearing their life-jackets ..."

Looking at safety developments over the past year, Yearwood said he is impressed that Sidney-based Viking Air, the "type certificate holder" for the Beaver, has produced pop-out windows and improved door handles to aid escape.

Most major float-plane operators on the B.C. coast have agreed to purchase the windows, including Seair, Harbour Air, and Pacific Coastal Airlines. Saltspring Air received a B.C. Aviation Council safety award for being the first airline to outfit its Beaver fleet. Operators are also expected to purchase the improved door handles when they become available soon.

Yearwood said he is pleased that several float-plane and helicopter operators are supporting the mandatory wearing of life-vests and added there is greater attention by everyone into egress, the ability to get out of a float plane in water.

While he said the new float plane association is a "good vehicle" to pursue safety improvements, its success will ultimately be judged by its actions. The first general meeting will be held in spring. "We need a truly safety-oriented association," he said. "If they take that slant, it will be a good thing."

Kirsten Stevens has served as a leading aviation safety advocate since her 40-year-old husband, David, was among five men, including the pilot, who died in the crash of an MJM Air Beaver aircraft off Quadra Island in 2005.

With the safety changes underway in the float-plane industry, she feels it is time to step down and try to get healthy.

"I have ulcerative colitis," she said from Campbell River. "I have to turn my focus to my family and myself right now."

She said it's apparent that the Saturna crash helped make politicians and high-level bureaucrats aware of flaws in float-plane safety, something the crash that killed her husband in 2005 did not.

"It's very unfortunate that so many lives were lost in order for this to happen."

Morrissey is concerned that in the absence of government and safety board officials on the new float plane association, it will be difficult coming up with safety strategies given the agendas of the various float-plane companies.

"My fear is that it will turn more into a feather-in-cap organization," he said.

Association spokesman Quentin Smith, president of Pacific Coastal, countered that the government can act as a resource but that the association will have more success and credibility if driven by industry rather than seen to be pushed by government. "This is a cultural decision," he said.

Eley said the federal government is doing its own work to see what can be done from a regulatory perspective.

Transport Canada sought advice from the Canadian aviation regulation advisory council's technical committee meeting in November, and expects to return with proposals in the spring.

Eley said the three priorities are accident prevention, allowing people to escape a float plane should it crash into water, and ensuring passengers are wearing a personal flotation device to keep them alive once they get out.

He noted that special inspections this year concluded there are "no systemic" safety problems in the B.C. float-plane industry, but that the results are still being compared with operators elsewhere in Canada.

When implementing changes, Ottawa must consider the various types of float planes out there, and the need for compliance by aircraft arriving in Canada from other countries.

"It's quite clear there have been a number of high-profile float-plane accidents," Eley said. "There's no question, we're not happy with any accidents and certainly we're not happy with any fatalities."

A total of 22 people died in four B.C. commercial floatplane accidents -- two into water, two into land -- in less than two years.

The last of the four crashes -- an Atleo Air Cessna 185 near Tofino, killing four -- occurred on May 29, the same day Broken Wings was launched, and proved to be the final straw in forcing Ottawa to take strong action. The report on that accident is also pending.

Saturday's memorial service was initiated by Saturna islanders in keeping with a tradition of remembering those who had a connection to the community. "We always knew we'd have one," said Lorna Quinn, a nurse who moved to Saturna in 2007. "It would occur when the families were ready for it."

Quinn recalled that on the day of the crash the pilot was removed immediately by helicopter, while Glenn was treated for hypothermia and other injuries at the island's medical clinic.

"It was traumatic. I cannot hear a float plane land or take off without thinking about it. It's had a lasting impact."

She'd like to fully move on from the tragedy, but to this day cannot board a float plane. "I've seen them land so many times safely since that day. But I can't go there. I can't do that."

Exactly when that changes, says Quinn, is less up to her than to the safety assurances of government and industry.

http://www.vancouversun.com/news/Commit ... story.html

[xsbank]

Good article - definitely true about the numbers of deaths...

Get well, Kirsten, look after yourself!

[Widow]

TSB Report came out today.
http://www.tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapports-repor ... 9p0397.asp

[kevinsky18]

A very good read and excellent learning aid.

[FlyGy]

B.C. floatplane changes recommended
Coroners Service urges B.C. and federal governments to adopt recommendations

The B.C. Coroners Service is recommending safety changes to seaplane operations on the West Coast, including installing emergency exits on all planes and requiring lifejackets during flights.

The proposed changes are part of 19 recommendations made by a special Death Review Panel that looked into four fatal crashes that killed a total of 23 people on the West Coast between 2005 and 2009.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-c ... afety.html

[Cat Driver]

Transport Canada create a requirement that all commercial seaplane pilots undergo training that includes a component on avoidance of, and recovery from, sudden encounters with hazards such as conditions that are below Visual Meteorological Conditions (VMC) minima, low level flight over glassy water and in poor visibility, and other typical hazards frequently encountered by seaplane pilots.

So in Canada they hand out commercial pilots licenses to people who are unable to comprehend such basic issues?

I should have been at those meetings because I would have insisted they cover all the bases and create a requirement that all commercial seaplane pilots must have a certificate on how to tie their shoe laces and check that they are tied so they do not trip on them and fall off the dock before they get to the airplane.

[1000 HP]

Transport Canada create a requirement that all commercial seaplane pilots undergo training that includes a component on avoidance of, and recovery from, sudden encounters with hazards such as conditions that are below Visual Meteorological Conditions (VMC) minima, low level flight over glassy water and in poor visibility, and other typical hazards frequently encountered by seaplane pilots.

So in Canada they hand out commercial pilots licenses to people who are unable to comprehend such basic issues?

I should have been at those meetings because I would have insisted they cover all the bases and create a requirement that all commercial seaplane pilots must have a certificate on how to tie their shoe laces and check that they are tied so they do not trip on them and fall off the dock before they get to the airplane.

No kidding! What a crock of crap. What they really need is a final rule that they have to drop 2 old rules to bring in 1 new one...

[FlyGy]

This one kinda made me wonder too:

"Transport Canada initiate research into technologies that would allow seaplanes to stay afloat, or significantly delay the rate of sinking, following collisions with water. "

Unless the floats are torn away from the plane, wouldn't it still float, even if inverted? I mean, it would be under water of course, but only a few feet. Besides, doesn't this already exist on helicopters? I thought some had deployable air bags to provide floatation for the fuselage.

[Widow]

Cat, do TC requirements for a seaplane endorsement really equip a pilot to fly pax here on the coast ? Shouldn't they?

Of course, I'm looking at this from a completely different perspective

FlyGuy, in one of the accidents reviewed, the a/c sank within minutes although both floats remained attached (over 800 ft down). The pilot and four passengers got out, but no PFD's were taken.

[1000 HP]

We had a private C206 porpoise and flip over on landing up in northern Saskatchewan. The water was about 70' deep. We recovered the pilot (only slightly bruised), and moored his unhappy a/c to a Bouy where it floated for a week until a salvage crew could be mobilized. This was in fresh water.

The truth is that every wreck or crash is different. Unless the passengers can get out, no flotation devices will help. An unconscious person can't inflate a pfd. A pfd inflated inside an airplane is likely a death sentence. One thing that might work would be airbags that automatically inflate using a system similar to an ELT and placed inside the floats. That way, accidental deployment would not cause in flight difficulties. Putting extra escape hatches in an airframe is not such a good idea because it may weaken the structure. These would have to be VERY CAREFULLY engineered. There are no perfect answers. Flying in seaplanes is just a lot more risky than watching TV. Ask my life insurance agent. I'd still rather be in a seaplane than a large commercial airliner in economy class:

I recently flew in a B737-800 in a 192 passenger seat configuration. The flight was from Cancun to Saskatoon. I was in seat 32A. That is a window seat on the last row by the john. I had 1" leg room ( I have short legs ) and my shoulders were 5" wider than the seat. Claustrophobia was setting in and that with the heat made it hard to breath. I finally got up to use the john even though I didn't need to. In the event of an accident I suspect panic would ensue and more people would die getting stepped on than anything. There were eight exits available. All of them small. None of the windows were big enough to exit. My only hope would be for the fuselage to break apart on impact. I likely wouldn't make it.

Would that make me cancel my trip to Cancun? NO. Next time I WILL PAY THE EXTRA to fly in a more comfortable airplane. Maybe the west coast operations should go back to standard seating in the Otters to put less people on those flights?

Just my thoughts.

[Cat Driver]

It is so good to see you post again Kirstin.

Cat, do TC requirements for a seaplane endorsement really equip a pilot to fly pax here on the coast ? Shouldn't they?

From my personal observations of the system it is my opinion that the vast majority of pilots who are issued sea plane ratings are not really competent enough to fly my dog in any sea plane anywhere.

Until the regulator pulls their heads out of their asses and completely restructures the training standards for sea plane pilots the end product will remain the same, they are not properly trained in many cases....

......for instance how many have actually done take off's and landings on glassy water?

For many years I lobbied TC flight training standards in Ottawa to change their requirements regarding the five solo take off's and landings and replace it with a test flight from designated independent examiners.

How can you have quality control overseen by people with possible conflict of interest?

Of course, I'm looking at this from a completely different perspective

No we are not.

[flyinthebug]

Along with Cat Driver, id like to say how it put a smile on my face to see you post widow!! Welcome back!!!:))

Cat, I was lucky enough to do my float rating with a real float driver. We did find some glassy water and he made damn sure I knew how to address it. Im not saying I was a great float driver after my 5 hours, but I was taught by someone that knew how to fly floats and that helped me stay alive over the years.

Out on the coast is an entirely different job flying floats than anywhere else in the country. The conditions you are faced with are not conditions you can simulate. The weather can turn in 10 mins on the coast. I recall a flight up to the head of Knights Inlet...It was pretty much SKC and calm winds on my way up...and 20 mins later on my way back out of Knights it was down to 500' and 1 mile with a strong outflow. I still remember The Old Fogducker referred to his time on floats on the coast...as a time he feels lucky he survived...and it humbled me to admit that I felt the same way. I had some truly white knuckle days on the coast and Im not sure any amount of training will prepare you for coastal float flying...only time and experience and some luck will keep you alive for 20,000 + hours on the coast.

I have alot of respect for guys like Wes Forth and Gary Fenton... guys who flew the coast most of their careers and are still flying into their 60s and 70s. Its too bad that what you advocated for Cat, never came to fruition...not yet anyways! If they had guys like yourself doing these ratings and then their DFTE ride...maybe that would help reduce the amount of accidents the coast has seen over the past decade. We will never know until TC starts to make some changes, real changes...and if they dont, we all know we will be discussing the next float plane accident on the coast before too long.

Fly safe all, and again, welcome back to posting Kirsten!! You have been missed.
FTB

[Cat Driver]

Soon I will be in my sixtieth year of flying sea planes and it looks like I will die before common sense returns to flight training and the mentoring of new sea plane pilots in commercial operations, especially out here on the west coast.

There are many old experienced sea plane pilots in the business who are either retired or semi retired who not only spent a lifetime flying sea planes they would be excellent DFTE's and mentors for the new pilots trying to learn to survive this business. However none of them are willing to go through the B.S. involved in dealing with the cretins that run T.C.

It is not black magic, it is common sense and being able to know when to say no and stick to your decision.

When I am flying sea planes in an area that I do not know my rule is I need five miles of visibility and the visual assurance the cloud layer will not clamp down on the water....and always have two places to run to where I can land and wait out bad weather, one ahead of me and one behind......and know I can get into one of them.

So far it has worked for me.

[jeta1]

.

[Cat Driver]

Utopia, ah. I wish it was that easy. Before I comment further, Cat, could you educate us in a standard "issue paper" format, ie: what the problem is, why it is not properly managed, and what is it that you recommend?

I was responding to Widows question and my opinion is the training for a sea plane rating needs to be upgraded because the quality of the new sea plane pilot can vary from excellent to very poor under the present system that is regulated by TCCA.

I offered a couple of changes that I feel would make for a better pilot before they were issued their sea plane rating.