Mid-air near Mission

[Big Pistons Forever]

. The report indicates that 4 a/c left the Langley airport and somehow ended up in a V-shaped formation. Something went tragically wrong and somehow two a/c came into contact - "touched wings" as the report goes - and we know the rest.

I'm very sorry for the families of those involved; nobody wants to hear news like this in the aviation community and I offer my condolences.

RDF

If they were in fact flying in formation (and I am always skeptical of media reported eye witness accounts), then I have to wonder about what and how much formation flying training all the pilots of the formation had.

Again I am not jumping to conclusions here, but this accident does potentially raise a very important point. Safe formation flying flying requires training from a properly qualified instructor. If you have not had any training and are thinking about "trying a little formation flying", please do not do it ! Formation flying is not dangerous but you have to be able to recognize a developing close quarters situation and know how to react. That will only come with some training. I was very lucky as I, and all the pilots I fly formation with, were trained by 2 Ex Snowbird team members.

If you are interested in Formation flying there is a US and TC recognized organization dedicated to civilian formation flying. It is called F.A.S.T. (Formation and Safety Training)

[Hedley]

+1

Formation flying is generally something that only ex-military pilots do. I'm not referring to same direction, same day - rather close, or parade formation, with overlapping wings and fuselage.

However I might mention that formation flying in (eg high wing) light training aircraft is something that military pilots generally don't have much experience with. Flying formation in light trainers - which are often difficult to see out of - is completely different than flying formation in jets.

[linecrew]

There is some more info here:

http://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=89996

[MrWings]

I was shocked when I opened the thread and it stated that people died.

I read the title and in my mind it registered "Mid-air near Miss"

Condolences to all.

[chu me]

My apologies to Oleo4. I meant that message to read ZBBYLW.

Sincerely

Chu me

[Jungle Jim]

Guys,

There was some discussion on the Thorp T18 group that i frequent about formation flying. One of the guys asked the following:

1. What reference points do you use when flying formation?
2. What is the proper position for #2 plane flying fixed wing formation?
3. What is the procedure for a lead plane emergency?
4. What is the procedure for trail plane emergency?
5. What is the break off procedure for trail one in a three plane echelon in an emergency?
6. What is the break off procedure for trail two in a three plane echelon in an emergency?
7. What is the procedure for all planes in an inadvertent flight into instrument conditions?
8. What is the procedure for a plane in trail rendezvous with the lead plane?
9. What it the procedure for lead plane in a rendezvous?
10. What is the procedure for normal break off from formation?
11. What are the responsibilities of the lead plane?
12. What are the responsibilities for trail planes?
13. What is the proper position for the #4 plane in a diamond formation?
14. What is considered the maximum safe differential speed for rendezvous with a lead plane or formation?
15. What information does a controller need from a formation flight? (how are transponders set?)
16. What is the procedure for entering a traffic pattern for a formation flight? Controlled? Uncontrolled?
17. What hand signal will be used if a communication is lost?
18. What frequencies will be used?
19. What planes have duel radios with frequency monitoring capability and which do not?


The silence that followed was interesting as most of us realized we didn't know a damn thing about formation flying. As stated previously, don't do this unless you have had training in formation flying as well as a proper briefing prior to the flight.


Jim

[Hedley]

I think you got the point across with the 20 questions.

I might point out that a join-up (interception) has absolutely nothing to do with close formation flying, and is more like air-to-air - trying to get into a position to shoot the other guy down, and hopefully he never sees you.

I know most people here don't think I'm very bright, but after a join-up, both aircraft (lead and wing) must have the same amount of total energy, which is defined as potential energy (height) plus speed (kinetic energy). If you as wing try to join up on a lead, starting at the same altitude - or God help you, above him - you will roar right past the lead, at the same altitude, because you have so much more total energy than the lead. In this case, a barrel roll around the lead is the best thing to do, to travel a greater distance.

It's best if the lead is turning, so you're not tailchasing. As wing, turn inside him, and below him, faster than the lead, on the extension of his wingtip. Slide up into place. If you overshoot - and you surely will overshoot - it's no big deal, push to slide under him and claim that you intended to join up on him on the outside echelon. No one will believe you, but it can't hurt to try.

Lead and wing perform totally different chores. Wing is like standing on a basketball - it's a hand/foot-eye co-ordination trick, to maintain the same sight picture, regardless of what the lead does (loop, roll).

Lead is far more cerebral. He looks around, navigates, worries about fuel and clearances, and makes gentle turns, keeping in mind that he is flying a very large aircraft - the formation. The Lead can actually use very steep angles of bank, but the rate of change of bank with respect to time (first derivative) must be low, to avoid throwing the wing off. Lead must never use too much power to leave his wing behind, and he must also never stall the wing, keeping in mind the geometry of the turns for both of the above.

Again, most of the experts here probably think I don't know as much about formation flying as they do, so my advice is worth precisely what you paid for it.

http://www.pittspecials.com/movies/outsideloop.wmv

One last tip: if you're going to fly formation IFR, best to read up on something called "auto-kinetic rotation" first.

[RVgrin]

Names are now public:

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/canada ... 41744.html

Both were really great guys, and will be sorely missed around here.

[Cougar]

Sincere condolences to the friends and families of these men.

Very sad news.

[c170b53]

This area is prone to out flow winds from the interior, colliding with weather systems coming ashore. I flew there the day before, wind at YPK was 5-10 knots 220, YCW was about 10 knots 050-060. These were not new pilots but they tragically may have been caught off guard by something they couldn't see. Condolences to those close to these aviators.

[Old Dog Flying]

I was in the same area shortly before the accident and the winds were calm and little or no turbulance. The one factor, if they were west bound would have been the low position of the sun which would have been brutal late in the day.

I knew Donn from hanging around Delta Air Park and my sympathy goes out to his wife.

Barney

[AirFrame]

@ZBBYLW - On reflection I see that you may not have meant your post in the way I took it. I hope that was the case and I apologize if I came back a little heavy-handed. Hearing that two of your friends have died does that to you.

While they only flew Cessnas and Pipers, they were extremely careful formation pilots. I flew formation with them many times for Remembrance Day flypasts, before I started doing formation in RV's. I did discuss with the leader the possibility of them getting connected with a FAST-equivalent group to get some formal training/certification. Still, I am confident that the lead pilot who died knew the answers to all but maybe one of those questions. I admit that although i'm FAST certified now I don't know the answer to #14 off the top of my head... But i'm going to find out.

This incident had nothing to do with the airspace in the lower mainland. The planes were flying formation, and something went wrong... That's it. Right now, we don't know what went wrong. I hope we do find out, because it might help the rest of us who fly formation learn from their tragic experience.

[Les Habitants]

EXTREMELY horrified and upset to hear this. As one who learned to fly in YNJ, I knew the pilot of the plane that crashed in the field (won't reveal it's call sign on here though, I'm sure you can figure it out) personally, and I had seen the pilot of the other plane flying it frequently. I can't believe it is gone.

The pilot of the other 150 that landed safely is a top notch individual, and I am not surprised, but very glad, that he was able to land safely in a field. Well done, and speedy recovery. RIP to the fellows who died.

[Prairie Chicken]

RIP fellows. At least you were doing something you had long enjoyed.

[Hedley]

I don't know the answer to #14

It's a trick question, like asking "How high is up"?

The answer will depend upon many things, and is actually completely irrelevant. Closing speed will be a function of aircraft type, angle of bank that the lead has on in the turn, how much lower you are than the lead at the start of the joinup (obviously you're going to convert airspeed into altitude), aircraft equipment (speed brakes) and configuration, and pilot skill.

Let's say you actually crunch the numbers for the above. It's almost completely useless except as an initial starting point, because the very last thing in the world that you want to do, during a joinup, is go under the hood and start staring at the gauges. A joinup is a completely visual exercise, like catching a baseball. You want to have your eyes on the lead the entire time, to closely observe your rate of closure ie how fast is he getting bigger?

As I mentioned before, if you have too much energy during a rear-quarter joinup, just push the nose down, and go under the lead (and the rest of the formation already joined up on him) and join up on the outside of the turn of the lead, instead of the inside. A tad embarrassing, but not fatal. If you really have 'way too much energy during a rear-quarter joinup, it's your birthday. You know why? Push the nose down to safely go underneath him, then pull up and do a barrel roll around him, to join up on the inside of the turn, as originally intended. If that's not fun, I don't know what is! I think you can probably guess where my throttle is, during a joinup. Heck, if you have a 200 mph delta on the lead, feel free to do as many barrel rolls around him as is necessary until you have equivalent total energy.

As I said before, a joinup has really nothing to do with close formation. You can take off and land in close formation and be awesome at flying wing, and have no clue at how to do a joinup, if your runway is wide enough to permit formation takeoffs and landings.

But joinups are extraordinary fun. You start off with rear quarter joinups, then after a while you can progress to front quarter joinups, eventually from pretty much head-on. It's a hoot. What I use for a front quarter joinup is basically pulling up through the vertical to the inverted 45 above and slightly behind the lead, and then a barrelled 1/2 roll to upright into position behind him. The trick here is to convert your airspeed into altitude which means that the radius of your 1/2 cuban eight is very tight, with the slow airspeed. Timing is critical to doing this right. Again, all looking outside, not inside at the flight instruments.

The romper boys call this a high yo-yo:

http://www.combataircraft.com/en/Tactic ... eed-Yo-Yo/

If you have an experienced ex-military (fighter) pilot as lead, during an interesting joinup like this, he may not be able to humanly resist putting his lift vector on you, and then the fun really begins

I know many people here think that I'm not a very good (formation / aerobatic) pilot compared to them, so I would be interested in how they perform front-quarter (head-on) joinups.