Resolute Bay Accident - Pilots Discussion Thread

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modi13
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Re: First Air 737 Crash Resolute

Post by modi13 » Sat Aug 20, 2011 12:59 pm

Latest word is three survivors. Extremely low cloud and poor visibility at the time, possibly a CFIT.
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Re: yrb

Post by ettw » Sat Aug 20, 2011 1:03 pm

modi13 wrote:Latest word is three survivors. Extremely low cloud and poor visibility at the time, possibly a CFIT.
I think CFIT is a bit of disrespectful conjecture at this point, no?
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Re: 737 Crash in YRB

Post by grimey » Sat Aug 20, 2011 3:40 pm

Well at least it was only a charter with 15 on board, rather than a sked with 50-100.

Condolences to the friends and family of all involved.
midwingcrisis wrote:Odd they would "clear" the B99 for an approach following...
without hearing the tapes or talking to those actually involved, it's hard to tell what actually happened. Don't put too much weight into a 15 second sound bite.
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Re: yrb

Post by modi13 » Sat Aug 20, 2011 3:44 pm

ettw wrote:I think CFIT is a bit of disrespectful conjecture at this point, no?
Well, I was present...
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Re: 737 Crash in YRB

Post by nutbutter » Sat Aug 20, 2011 3:56 pm

Why were they off centerline on an ILS (i saw backcourse posted and assumed it's an ILS)? Does anyone have a scan of a plate to post?

Edit: they weren't trying to circle or something were they?Anyone know the SOP's for a missed at First Air? This accident sounds a little strange.
Condolences to the family, friends, and colleagues.
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Last edited by nutbutter on Sat Aug 20, 2011 4:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 737 Crash in YRB

Post by f.o.ever » Sat Aug 20, 2011 3:57 pm

how insensitive. it doesnt matter if 1 person dies or 1000.. its a tragedy none-the-less
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Re: yrb

Post by ettw » Sat Aug 20, 2011 3:58 pm

modi13 wrote:
ettw wrote:I think CFIT is a bit of disrespectful conjecture at this point, no?
Well, I was present...
"C" stands for controlled....Therefore your use of CFIT is conjecture.
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Re: 737 Crash in YRB

Post by grimey » Sat Aug 20, 2011 4:30 pm

f.o.ever wrote:how insensitive. it doesnt matter if 1 person dies or 1000.. its a tragedy none-the-less
I wasn't being insensitive. Pardon me, but if I hear that a 737 crashed, I consider it a good thing that it wasn't full. Still a tragedy, but I'd rather not have 40 extra people die.
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Re: yrb

Post by r22captain » Sat Aug 20, 2011 4:45 pm

modi13 wrote:
ettw wrote:I think CFIT is a bit of disrespectful conjecture at this point, no?
Well, I was present...
please think before you post something like that......let TSB run it's course. There's lots of "possibles"

RIP......sad day
Thoughts to everyone and First Air and families involved.
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Re: First Air Crash Resolute Bay August 20 2011

Post by DHC5 » Sun Aug 21, 2011 3:59 am

I am not a pilot, nor a crew member, however have had plenty of aviation related experience in the north, and I have to agree there is a lot of uninformed and "armchair" speculation going on by "Vultures" whom seem to think they know it all.
Until the TSB has concluded and released their findings, no one has any idea what was going on with this aircraft or what was happening in the cockpit.. show some respect people and keep your speculation to simple condolences and show some respect to your counterparts in the aviation industry...it could have been you!!! Would you like someone specualting on what you did, or rather have them show respect for doing what you loved doing?

With that said.. I have great respect for front end and back end crews of all northern operators, and had the privilege of flying on 7F several times into YCB for work over the past few years, and all were very professional. I pass on my condolences to the 7F family throughout their network.
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Re: First Air Crash Resolute Bay August 20 2011

Post by invertedattitude » Sun Aug 21, 2011 5:45 am

I study aircraft crashes and incidents as a casual interest... morbid as it is.

I just want to say, that of the hundred or so crashes I've spent time with, almost 0% of the time are the initial theories correct.

Heartfelt condolences to those who lost their lives, and especially to the families and friends who now have to live on in greif.

We can all speculate, I guarantee none of us would be right anyway, every single accident or incident has multiple layers of direct and indirect causes as most of you know.

From past accident studies of the 737 there are multiple previous accidents which could have caused this none of which are related to weather or instrument approaches.

Wait for the TSB report, those of you who are so quick to hang the flight crew while knowing nothing should tread carefully, because it is almost guaranteed to come back and bite you.

Fly safe people.
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Re: yrb

Post by another_try » Sun Aug 21, 2011 10:27 am

Also, I love it when people don't expect theories to be discussed in these threads. Grow up.
I edited your I'll-considered post.
Good advise that you may wish to consider. Try and read a thread and get a sense of the underlying tone before pontificating.
JC
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Re: yrb

Post by Axial Flow » Sun Aug 21, 2011 10:34 am

another_try wrote:
ettw wrote:
modi13 wrote:Latest word is three survivors. Extremely low cloud and poor visibility at the time, possibly a CFIT.
I think CFIT is a bit of disrespectful conjecture at this point, no?
CFIT is the most likely cause, there's no doubt about that.

Also, I love it when people don't expect theories to be discussed in these threads. Grow up.
It's the analysis by people unqualified and who have no details is what is the problem and who show little respect for the Crew. Stick to pretending to fly IFR in your Baron and let the professionals find out what happened.

My thoughts are with the families of those lost and to all First Air Employees.
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Re: First Air Crash Resolute Bay August 20 2011

Post by Rowdy » Sun Aug 21, 2011 10:45 am

Who are you to point fingers? CFIT? come on now.. do you know the area? the approach? the weather patterns in res? the company policies and SOPs? The crew themselves and their respective experience? That particular airframe and its history? I didnt think so..

So many variables to consider..

Some fantastic people at 7F and the loss of a couple of great people in that ACCIDENT. Leave the armchair quarterbacking and bickering out of this. Unless you have some cold and hard facts.. STFU.
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Re: First Air Crash Resolute Bay August 20 2011

Post by Gino Under » Sun Aug 21, 2011 10:58 am

Ax n' Rowdy
Just a question for you, since you're implying that you're professionals above reproach..
A 737 spread all over the ground at 8 miles final suggests someone 'might' have been at an inappropriate altitude. Yes?
Of the souls on board, regardless of aircraft type, whom do you suggest might be able to account for the positioning of that aircraft's turn onto final?
Or is that a big secret some non-pilot types aren't able to figure out or even able to speculate over?

I believed pilot forums are for discussion and debate. Your freedom to speculate, if that's what you choose to do with an opportunity like this, is up to you. Granted, many would be well advised to be a bit more sensitive especially in these early hours but I think speculation over what happened is just a matter of dialogue amongst aviation enthusiasts alike and nothing more. Most of us can recognize speculation for what it is. How the aircraft made contact with terra firma is what needs to be determined.

It certainly looks like CFIT. But, like so many accidents, there is usually a "chain of events". So, I agree, best wait and see what lead to what.

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Re: yrb

Post by KAG » Sun Aug 21, 2011 10:59 am

another_try wrote:
ettw wrote:
modi13 wrote:Latest word is three survivors. Extremely low cloud and poor visibility at the time, possibly a CFIT.
I think CFIT is a bit of disrespectful conjecture at this point, no?
CFIT is the most likely cause, there's no doubt about that.

Also, I love it when people don't expect theories to be discussed in these threads. Grow up.
There always has to be one a$$hole in the room doesn't there? regardless of what you may or most likely don't know why not just let people grieve?

Im truely sorry everyone's loss. RIP
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Re: First Air Crash Resolute Bay August 20 2011

Post by Axial Flow » Sun Aug 21, 2011 11:16 am

Gino Under wrote:Ax n' Rowdy
Just a question for you, since you're implying that you're professionals above reproach..
A 737 spread all over the ground at 8 miles final suggests someone 'might' have been at an inappropriate altitude. Yes?
Of the souls on board, regardless of aircraft type, whom do you suggest might be able to account for the positioning of that aircraft's turn onto final?
Or is that a big secret some non-pilot types aren't able to figure out or even able to speculate over?
Not the time or place to get in a pissing match but you just made my point...the airplane is abeam the runway about a mile away so keep on with your theories...

My last post on the matter as this should be a time as KAG said for people to grieve not think they are the Gino with all the answers.
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Re: First Air Crash Resolute Bay August 20 2011

Post by Therewewere » Sun Aug 21, 2011 11:47 am

Boeing 737-200 AFM tailwind limitation is 15K. Wind at time of occurrence was 150 to 180 degrees true at 8 - 18k might have influenced whether or not to do a straight in on ILS for 35. My condolences to all those involved. One of the FA's had been there since NWT Air Days.
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Re: First Air Crash Resolute Bay August 20 2011

Post by cncpc » Sun Aug 21, 2011 2:26 pm

invertedattitude wrote:I study aircraft crashes and incidents as a casual interest... morbid as it is.

I just want to say, that of the hundred or so crashes I've spent time with, almost 0% of the time are the initial theories correct.

Heartfelt condolences to those who lost their lives, and especially to the families and friends who now have to live on in greif.

We can all speculate, I guarantee none of us would be right anyway, every single accident or incident has multiple layers of direct and indirect causes as most of you know.

From past accident studies of the 737 there are multiple previous accidents which could have caused this none of which are related to weather or instrument approaches.

Wait for the TSB report, those of you who are so quick to hang the flight crew while knowing nothing should tread carefully, because it is almost guaranteed to come back and bite you.

Fly safe people.
With respect, I don't think people experienced in aircraft crash investigation and experienced pilots are 100% wrong in their initial theories.

This Google Earth view represents what I believe is an accurate picture of the accident environment. The wreckage trail is represented by the yellow line. That assertion is based on the photo which was put up on the first page of this thread. The gully leading down from the nose of the aircraft at the end of the wreckage appears to contain the same washed out sort of area in google and the photo. The two red circles outline remarkably similar geometric forms. One is the approach end of 35T. The other is a road structure on a slightly sloping flat area elevated above the airport by about 325 feet and one mile to the right of the centerline of the runway.

The lake to the southeast of the wreckage trail could appear in certain cloud arrangements to be similar to the shoreline on the approach to 35T.

The aircraft would have been between two layers of clouds with approximately 200 feet between layers, with the bottom scattered layer at 475 ASL and the top broken layer at 675 ASL. Some of what was a scattered layer from the weather observation point may have been broken in the hill above.

These are more observations than theory. It would appear that CFIT, however, is supported by the evidence of a debris trail that would indicate an aircraft under control. The information that would assist is if there was certain knowledge that the ILS was U/S, if military PAR was in operation, and if First Air's SOP's or other authorizations would have included flying an impromptu PAR from the military present for the exercise. It seems that there should have been no difficulty getting in with any normal kind of IFR approach, with a 500 foot ceiling. It is difficult to conceive why the aircraft would have been a mile to the right of its course, and more or less on runway heading, in any kind of instrument approach.

Certainly this may be an extraordinary coincidence. I am sure though that these facts which appear on this photograph will be taken into consideration by the TSB in their investigation of this terrible accident.

Image
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Re: First Air Crash Resolute Bay August 20 2011

Post by nutbutter » Sun Aug 21, 2011 3:22 pm

oldncold wrote:very sad and condolences to all of the above crew and family//

i cant remember how many times as a kid my dad would phone home saying his 7 week tour just got extended but the bright side was its just 2 more weeks in res bay. back in the pwa era pan arctic oil days, lookin after a couple of bell206 b's and 205 he'd always come home on the 737. to those families affected tramatic and hard to handle.

the cockpit n flt data recorders will tell the events. however just from the location I have one ? based on the ils being notamed u/s could it be that the hsi was incorrectly set for a back course 35 and needles reversed sensing. this would explain why a very experienced crew was off track . every one of us at one time or another after a long flight has set the back course incorrectly then realized before intercept the loc and adjusted the hsi . the nav can replacement ils program is eliminating back courses for this very reason safety and cost .
now with glass front offices ( politically correct term) the s.i is much better but there are still many 'steam driven ' airliners and 704 ops too that the hsi is the key instrument.

once again very sad to learn of this will stand by for the tsb report.
My guess is they've got a perfectly good GPS onboard and knew where they were. As far as I can remember the HSI doesn't reverse sense, only the simple VOR does. I checked the notams a little while after the accident FYI and didn't see it offline. I would suspect b/c the aircraft crashed while on the ILS approach, TC would have shut it down to perform accuracy tests on it just in case there was an equipment problem on the ground that caused the accident. Just a guess though.
BTW my deepest sympathies are for the family and friends of the passengers and crew onboard, but please guys this is an internet forum, as long as as post isn't slandering the deceased, I don't see a problem with analyzing the evidence we have at hand and striking up a discussion on the subject. As a group we're supposed to learn from these tragedies after all, and make sure we don't repeat them.
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Re: yrb

Post by modi13 » Sun Aug 21, 2011 3:35 pm

r22captain wrote:please think before you post something like that......let TSB run it's course. There's lots of "possibles".
ettw wrote:"C" stands for controlled....Therefore your use of CFIT is conjecture.
I didn't mean any disrespect by my comment, and I wasn't conjecturing on the cause. I merely mentioned that it was a CFIT because the fact that the crew was still in control on three mile final, the engines were running, the aircraft is oriented parallel to the runway and level with the horizon, and the wreckage is strewn across a large area indicates that aircraft was still being flown by the pilots or autopilot at the time of impact. If it had stalled or a mechanical failure had caused it to rapidly descend it would leave a much smaller impact area. Controlled flight into terrain doesn't automatically imply pilot error as the cause; there could have been a nav aid or instrument failure that caused them to put the aircraft off course. I was merely trying to convey that the aircraft was in flight at the time of the accident and it doesn't seem likely to have been caused by a bomb or something like that. I have more first-hand info about this incident than almost anyone and I'm so baffled by the events surrounding it that I can't even begin to speculate on the actual cause.
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Re: First Air Crash Resolute Bay August 20 2011

Post by modi13 » Sun Aug 21, 2011 3:40 pm

nutbutter wrote:I checked the notams a little while after the accident FYI and didn't see it offline. I would suspect b/c the aircraft crashed while on the ILS approach, TC would have shut it down to perform accuracy tests on it just in case there was an equipment problem on the ground that caused the accident.
That's correct. The aircraft was on the ILS for 35, not the back course, and the system was NOTAMed U/S because of the possibility it was a factor. They'll be sending up an aircraft to test it once the weather improves.
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Re: yrb

Post by Canoehead » Sun Aug 21, 2011 3:47 pm

modi13 wrote:the engines were running
How do you know?

(Edited to quote the correct poster)
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Re: First Air Crash Resolute Bay August 20 2011

Post by r22captain » Sun Aug 21, 2011 3:56 pm

modi.....please stop......seriously
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Re: First Air Crash Resolute Bay August 20 2011

Post by Doc » Sun Aug 21, 2011 4:06 pm

modi13, back to sensitivity training for you.
C'mon people, can't we just leave the "why's and how's" till another day.
'nuff said. I should think.
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