Resolute Bay Accident - Pilots Discussion Thread

[Lost in Saigon]

Does that mean no GS only, with a good localizer, or nothing? Must have had a localizer, because Borek was doing a back course.

What does a temporary tower add? Was there PAR? Could the flight have used it? If it was operational, why didn't somebody warn the crew?

There used to be a Cape Martyr beacon RU about 2 miles from the button of 35 but I see it's gone and the plate is only two months old.

ILS U/S means ILS U/S. It ain't rocket science. The NOTAM was issued AFTER the accident. Even you know that because you questioned how Borek did the Back Course. Maybe you should give it a rest because you seem to be running around in circles accomplishing nothing with all your theories.

Almost every accident has multiple factors. I am sure that is also the case here. They have the CVR and FDR so I expect we will know very soon what happened.

At this point there are too many unanswered questions to accurately guess what happened.....

Was there really a control tower and control zone in effect with positive control? (I don't think so)
Was it really 10 minutes from the time they reported 3 miles final until they hit the ground? (that is a very long time)
Why were there no other radio calls during those 10 minutes?
Did they broadcast their intentions for an ILS 35T? or for an ILS 35T circling for 17T? or something else?
Did they do a procedure turn?
Why did Borek do the approach while an aircraft was still missing?
What was the elapsed time between the last position report and the Borek Back Course approach?
What was the landing weight of the aircraft?
How much tailwind could it accept?
Were there any systems unserviceable that might affect landing performance or Standard Operating Procedures?

Somebody out there probably knows the answers to most of these questions...... They just haven't made it public yet.....

[cienki]

Close-up photos of the crash site. So devastating.

I had been on that plane so many times.

http://www.tsb.gc.ca/eng/medias-media/p ... 1H0002.asp

[Panama Jack]

This will surprise few of you, but I looked up the definition of expert. As it turns out, even though I've never consider myself one, not only am I an aviation expert but most of you are as well.

If you're flying professionally, you've already accepted a degree of responsibility beyond that of most individuals, so don't be afraid to express your expert opinion on this or any other accident.
There is nothing wrong with speculation as an expert as long as you understand and accept the fact you could be way off on your speculation.

Those who wish to stay out of speculative commentary should feel free to do so. But please don't tell those who wish to speculate to STFU. Even the speculators understand and appreciate the need for sensitivity and respect for grieving survivors.

Gino

I am glad that Gino Under has the courage and the eloquence to state the above.

As much as some theories may be repugnant to us, in other cases, like AF447, improvements have already been implemented based on theories of weaknesses and incomplete information. This has resulted in us already enhancing safety and possibly avoiding other accidents. As most people are aware no Final Report has been published yet.

Whether a factor or not in the accident, based on my personal theories and those expressed here on the forum, I have placed a new emphasis on the importance of cross-checking during my daily flight operations. Like most other pilots here, I have always known the importance of this but sometimes you need an incident/accident close to the emotional "home" to serve as a wake-up call. One may argue that to do nothing and sit on one's hands until final results come out months or even years later would be negligent in itself.

This is in no way meant to be a statement of disrespect to industry colleagues from First Air, or other airlines, who have been victims of aviation accidents.

[cncpc]

ILS U/S means ILS U/S. It ain't rocket science. The NOTAM was issued AFTER the accident. Even you know that because you questioned how Borek did the Back Course. Maybe you should give it a rest because you seem to be running around in circles accomplishing nothing with all your theories.

The NOTAM appears to have been issued on the 11th of August and is valid until August 31st. I'm perfectly capable of deciding when it is time to rest and I don't have any theory other than the one that the facts seem to point to.

If the ILS was NOTAMed U/S after the accident, and it is still U/S, was it U/S but not NOTAMed during the approach?

[Rudy]

I believe the 11 indicates the year, 2011. The other digits are just the NOTAM number.

[Lost in Saigon]

110129 CYRB RESOLUTE BAY
CYRB ILS 35 U/S
TIL APRX 1108312359

That is the official Nav Canada NOTAM for the CYRB ILS. http://www.flightplanning.navcanada.ca/ ... ni_File=on

110129 is the "NOTAM continuity number". That is not the date the NOTAM was issued.

There is also no beginning period for the NOTAM.

"1108312359" means 2011 Aug 31 23:59Z

[gwengler]

A friend who is a (jet) charter pilot had this to say when I told him about the VOR speculation: "It was an “old” B737, with mechanical radio tuning knobs. Mistuning is more likely to happen, unless the pilots identify the frequency. Frequencies are NOT auto-tuned and auto-identified. And they are not displayed on the PFD in the direct vision of both pilots. Same goes most likely for the DME readouts which are only referred to no1 or no2 NAV, not station name. Most likely no moving map and fully integrated GPS / Autopilot system in the aircraft. I wonder what the GPWS told them. May be they were fully landing configured, only then there will be no warning. Resolute airport may not be in the EGPWS database. Hope they find out and everybody learns from it. So far speculation only."

Gerd

[Gino Under]

I have this sinking feeling they might have been circling.
If so, it might turn out to be the biggest contributing factor.
Circling in jet transports shouldn't be allowed. It's a simulator maneuver and nothing more.

http://flightsafety.org/aerosafety-worl ... approaches

thoughts?

Gino

[cncpc]

I believe the 11 indicates the year, 2011. The other digits are just the NOTAM number.

Correct. Thanks.

[cncpc]

As some wish the original thread to be a condolences thread, I've started this one.

The original ILS U/S NOTAM was issued as 11022 August 21, 0047Z, or nine hours after the accident. It was originally for one day, renewed for another day, then set to the end of this month.

[1&2SpooledUp]

With the availability of a Straight in LOC/BC or GNSS approach to RWY 17 and the crews knowledge and familiarity of local terrain and given a wx report like this, I think the last thing the crew would have been doing is a circling approach to the east towards that hill. If you look at the photo you can see the fog bank lingering in the background and wasn't there an eye-wittiness report that stated the crash site was not visible initially because of the fog. Remember folks, a circling approach is a visual maneuver.

METAR CYRB 202000Z 18009KT 8SM VCFG SCT003 OVC005 07/07 A2986 RMK
SF2SC5 VIS E-SE 3 FG SLP116=

[CpnCrunch]

I read an article a while ago that claimed that there had not been a CFIT accident involving North American carriers since EGPWS was introduced. The article also mentioned a potential hazard of EGPWS in that it is largely based on a terrain database and a failure of the database would decrease the performance of the system. I have flown in the Arctic, but not as far as YRB. Is there TAWS/EGPWS information that far north?

There have been 3 CFIT accidents on EGPWS equipped planes. However none of the planes had a graphical terrain display.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrain_aw ... _incidents

Also bear in mind that TAWS is only mandatory on planes manufactured in the USA after March 2002.

[cncpc]

Looks like the ILS is serviceable again. NOTAM cancelled.

[Brewguy]

I just posted this article as general information in the other thread. But it perhaps adds a bit of fuel to the fire so to speak for those suggesting this accident should fall into the 'CFIT' category. Which again, could be caused by a number of things...

First Air passengers had no warnings before crash: RCMP

By Jordan Press, Postmedia News
August 24, 2011 2:46 PM

Passengers aboard First Air flight 6560 had no warning that they were about to crash in the seconds before their plane slammed into a hillside in Resolute Bay, the youngest survivor of the crash has told investigators.

Shortly after the crash, investigators spoke with seven-year-old Gabrielle Pelky who told investigators that as the plane began to descend to the airport in the tiny Arctic hamlet, everything appeared fine.

She described seeing buildings and the landscape just before impact.

"When the plane was going down into Resolute, it all felt normal," said RCMP Supt. Howard Eaton.

"Next thing you know, it was bang. There were no bells, no warnings."

Eaton said Pelky gave a detailed description of the flight, including where everyone was sitting, and the final seconds before the crash.

"She was very together. Seven going on 20," Eaton said.

Saturday's crash killed 12 people. Pelky and two other passengers survived.

Pelky and Nicole Williamson, 23, walked away from the crash site. Robin Wyllie, 48, was helped away from the site by rescuers.

Williamson and Wyllie are recovering at the Ottawa Hospital. Pelky was released from the Children's Hospital of Eastern Ontario on Monday.

Williamson is to have surgery on her foot, her father Mark Williamson said.

"She's in pretty good condition, considering what she's gone through," he said. "As you can imagine, walking away from something like that is a fairly traumatic thing."

First Air has said it lost communication with the Boeing 737-200 around 12:40 p.m. local time Saturday when the plane was eight kilometres from the airport. A few minutes later, the plane crashed, splintering into three pieces and sending debris across a one-kilometre area.

The RCMP have removed all the remains from the site, said Sgt. Paul Solomon in Resolute Bay.

Investigators have not been able to hand over the site to the Transportation Safety Board because of the weather. Solomon said high winds on Wednesday whipped up debris and forced investigators off the hillside for safety reasons.

The Transportation Safety Board will be responsible for determining what caused the plane to crash.

With files from the Ottawa Citizen
© Copyright (c) Postmedia News

Read more: http://www.canada.com/First+passengers+ ... z1VzEJygrK

[Just another canuck]

Sounds like CFIT to me. And if it is, it wasn't the first time and it certainly won't be the last.

[Lost in Saigon]

"RCMP Supt. Howard Eaton said Aug. 24 that the girl recalled the plane was making its final approach and that everything looked normal."

“She said she was looking out the window and she could see the buildings [of Resolute Bay] as they approached,” said RCMP Supt. Howard Eaton, “and then, bam - they hit the hill.”

The survivor testimony seems to suggest that they DID NOT do an ILS/DME 35T circling for 17T. That would have required an increase in power to level off, and then at least two turns to get lined up 1 mile downwind where they crashed. The passengers would have noticed that.

It does sound more like they did a straight in approach and then hit the hill. That could support the theories of them accidentally approaching on the VOR instead of the ILS.

I am still puzzled by reports that they reported 3 miles final and then hit the hill 10 minutes later.

[cncpc]

I am still puzzled by reports that they reported 3 miles final and then hit the hill 10 minutes later.

I'm not sure where the story about 10 minutes later ever came from. It may be that it was ten minutes till the Borek crew saw the accident scene on the hilltop.

[Indanao]

Sounds like CFIT to me. And if it is, it wasn't the first time and it certainly won't be the last.

+1 They should pull this thread and wait for the Official Report. People will have forgotten about the newsclips by then, and the people scared of airtravel will not have to be alarmed?

[Lost in Saigon]

I'm not sure where the story about 10 minutes later ever came from. It may be that it was ten minutes till the Borek crew saw the accident scene on the hilltop.

The story came directly from First Air in a press release: http://www.firstair.ca/2011/08/first-ai ... ccident-3/

Charter flight #6560 en route to Resolute Bay from Yellowknife last reported communication at 12:40 local time, approximately five miles from Resolute Bay airport. The Boeing 737-200 with registration CGNWN went down at approximately 12:50 local time.

[nutbutter]

With the availability of a Straight in LOC/BC or GNSS approach to RWY 17 and the crews knowledge and familiarity of local terrain and given a wx report like this, I think the last thing the crew would have been doing is a circling approach to the east towards that hill. If you look at the photo you can see the fog bank lingering in the background and wasn't there an eye-wittiness report that stated the crash site was not visible initially because of the fog. Remember folks, a circling approach is a visual maneuver.

METAR CYRB 202000Z 18009KT 8SM VCFG SCT003 OVC005 07/07 A2986 RMK
SF2SC5 VIS E-SE 3 FG SLP116=

Its a visual maneuver until you enter cloud, then its a missed approach where you're off track, and possibly disoriented. What if while conducting a circling maneuver on the Captains side, you tuned up the VOR with the same radial as the inbound on the ILS to keep yourself parallel with the runway during the circling maneuver a mile or so off centre? Watch your altitude and start the turn just after VOR passage? And then something went horribly wrong...
Complete guess mind you, total speculation as I've never been there or flown a jet for that matter. I'm no stranger to old Indian tricks though when it comes to shooting the odd approach. I'm trying to put myself in their shoes is all.
I just don't see them tuning the VOR and tracking it instead of the Loc, I imagine they would have backed it up with the GPS and therefore should have known where they were. Even an old POS GPS would have told them the airport was a mile to the left of track.
It just would have looked wrong if backed up properly, even if it didn't register.