Resolute Bay Accident - Pilots Discussion Thread

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Lost in Saigon
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Re: Resolute Bay Accident - Pilots Discussion Thread

Post by Lost in Saigon » Wed Aug 24, 2011 4:21 pm

"RCMP Supt. Howard Eaton said Aug. 24 that the girl recalled the plane was making its final approach and that everything looked normal."

“She said she was looking out the window and she could see the buildings [of Resolute Bay] as they approached,” said RCMP Supt. Howard Eaton, “and then, bam - they hit the hill.”

The survivor testimony seems to suggest that they DID NOT do an ILS/DME 35T circling for 17T. That would have required an increase in power to level off, and then at least two turns to get lined up 1 mile downwind where they crashed. The passengers would have noticed that.

It does sound more like they did a straight in approach and then hit the hill. That could support the theories of them accidentally approaching on the VOR instead of the ILS.

I am still puzzled by reports that they reported 3 miles final and then hit the hill 10 minutes later.
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Re: Resolute Bay Accident - Pilots Discussion Thread

Post by cncpc » Wed Aug 24, 2011 4:38 pm

Lost in Saigon wrote:I am still puzzled by reports that they reported 3 miles final and then hit the hill 10 minutes later.
I'm not sure where the story about 10 minutes later ever came from. It may be that it was ten minutes till the Borek crew saw the accident scene on the hilltop.
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Re: Resolute Bay Accident - Pilots Discussion Thread

Post by Indanao » Wed Aug 24, 2011 4:49 pm

Just another canuck wrote:Sounds like CFIT to me. And if it is, it wasn't the first time and it certainly won't be the last.
+1 They should pull this thread and wait for the Official Report. People will have forgotten about the newsclips by then, and the people scared of airtravel will not have to be alarmed?
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Re: Resolute Bay Accident - Pilots Discussion Thread

Post by Lost in Saigon » Wed Aug 24, 2011 5:43 pm

cncpc wrote:I'm not sure where the story about 10 minutes later ever came from. It may be that it was ten minutes till the Borek crew saw the accident scene on the hilltop.
The story came directly from First Air in a press release: http://www.firstair.ca/2011/08/first-ai ... ccident-3/
Charter flight #6560 en route to Resolute Bay from Yellowknife last reported communication at 12:40 local time, approximately five miles from Resolute Bay airport. The Boeing 737-200 with registration CGNWN went down at approximately 12:50 local time.
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Re: Resolute Bay Accident - Pilots Discussion Thread

Post by nutbutter » Wed Aug 24, 2011 8:15 pm

1&2SpooledUp wrote:With the availability of a Straight in LOC/BC or GNSS approach to RWY 17 and the crews knowledge and familiarity of local terrain and given a wx report like this, I think the last thing the crew would have been doing is a circling approach to the east towards that hill. If you look at the photo you can see the fog bank lingering in the background and wasn't there an eye-wittiness report that stated the crash site was not visible initially because of the fog. Remember folks, a circling approach is a visual maneuver.

METAR CYRB 202000Z 18009KT 8SM VCFG SCT003 OVC005 07/07 A2986 RMK
SF2SC5 VIS E-SE 3 FG SLP116=

Its a visual maneuver until you enter cloud, then its a missed approach where you're off track, and possibly disoriented. What if while conducting a circling maneuver on the Captains side, you tuned up the VOR with the same radial as the inbound on the ILS to keep yourself parallel with the runway during the circling maneuver a mile or so off centre? Watch your altitude and start the turn just after VOR passage? And then something went horribly wrong...
Complete guess mind you, total speculation as I've never been there or flown a jet for that matter. I'm no stranger to old Indian tricks though when it comes to shooting the odd approach. I'm trying to put myself in their shoes is all.
I just don't see them tuning the VOR and tracking it instead of the Loc, I imagine they would have backed it up with the GPS and therefore should have known where they were. Even an old POS GPS would have told them the airport was a mile to the left of track.
It just would have looked wrong if backed up properly, even if it didn't register.
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Re: Resolute Bay Accident - Pilots Discussion Thread

Post by cncpc » Wed Aug 24, 2011 8:59 pm

Lost in Saigon wrote:
cncpc wrote:I'm not sure where the story about 10 minutes later ever came from. It may be that it was ten minutes till the Borek crew saw the accident scene on the hilltop.
The story came directly from First Air in a press release: http://www.firstair.ca/2011/08/first-ai ... ccident-3/
Charter flight #6560 en route to Resolute Bay from Yellowknife last reported communication at 12:40 local time, approximately five miles from Resolute Bay airport. The Boeing 737-200 with registration CGNWN went down at approximately 12:50 local time.
The CADOR says the occurence time was 1740Z. Some misunderstanding at First Air, I guess. The last communication was supposedly three back.

The Cador says this is the weather...

Weather was reported to be a 200 foot ceiling with 3 miles visibility in fog and drizzle; wind was 180 degrees at 10 knots.

That casts a different light. The ILS is barely makeable. The localizer 35 is about 150' below minimums. It doesn't say whether the ceiling was broken or overcast.

Definitely not the weather to circle, or to try a 540 minimum localizer if the glideslope seems to not be working.

They would have been able to see the hill from the ground at the airport, but not the top 150 feet.
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Re: Resolute Bay Accident - Pilots Discussion Thread

Post by fish4life » Wed Aug 24, 2011 9:28 pm

Cador is ZULU time, that would be the difference
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Re: Resolute Bay Accident - Pilots Discussion Thread

Post by cncpc » Wed Aug 24, 2011 10:11 pm

fish4life wrote:Cador is ZULU time, that would be the difference
You mean the time is ten minutes different in Zulu time?
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Re: Resolute Bay Accident - Pilots Discussion Thread

Post by fish4life » Wed Aug 24, 2011 10:17 pm

I was getting at the difference between 1740 and 1240
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Re: Resolute Bay Accident - Pilots Discussion Thread

Post by cncpc » Wed Aug 24, 2011 10:52 pm

fish4life wrote:I was getting at the difference between 1740 and 1240

Ok, sure. The issue was about a ten minute gap in the timeframe.

Is the weather observation station at the airport in Resolute?
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Re: Resolute Bay Accident - Pilots Discussion Thread

Post by hartley » Thu Aug 25, 2011 12:19 am

There seems to be discussion on the ILS Inbound track versus the VOR inbound track. Possibly you should address the "Instrument Transfer Switch" system, if this 737 was so equipped.
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Re: Resolute Bay Accident - Pilots Discussion Thread

Post by BEFAN5 » Thu Aug 25, 2011 5:13 am


The two female survivors reported the impact came completely unexpected with no obvious problem prior to impact. The girl received a leg fracture and was found sitting on a rock in tears by the 23 year old female, who also managed to get away from the wreckage, and taken to a safe place. Investigators could not yet speak to the male survivor due to health condition.

NAV Canada reported the aircraft was on an ILS/DME approach to runway 35T when it collided with terrain east of the runway at N74.71883 W94.91867. 4 crew and 8 passengers perished, 3 passengers received non-life threatening injuries. Weather was reported: 200 feet cloud ceiling, 3 miles visibility with fog and drizzle, wind from 180 degrees at 10 knots.
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Re: Resolute Bay Accident - Pilots Discussion Thread

Post by nutbutter » Thu Aug 25, 2011 6:40 am

hartley wrote:There seems to be discussion on the ILS Inbound track versus the VOR inbound track. Possibly you should address the "Instrument Transfer Switch" system, if this 737 was so equipped.
What is that?
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Re: Resolute Bay Accident - Pilots Discussion Thread

Post by Lost in Saigon » Thu Aug 25, 2011 6:50 am

nutbutter wrote:
hartley wrote:There seems to be discussion on the ILS Inbound track versus the VOR inbound track. Possibly you should address the "Instrument Transfer Switch" system, if this 737 was so equipped.
What is that?


Is it this switch?

http://www.b737.org.uk/flightinsts.htm# ... nstruments
The big Gotcha with SP-177 equipped 737-200Advs and non-EFIS Classics were the HSI source selectors, sometimes referred to as “Killer Switches”. These were located either side of the MCP and changed the HSI to show deviation either from the LNAV or ILS/VOR track. It is vitally important that these switches are set to VOR/ILS before commencing an approach otherwise you will still be indicating LNAV deviation rather than LLZ deviation.
HSI source selector switch
Image






OR This switch?


http://www.b737.org.uk/navigation.htm#I ... t_Transfer
Instrument Transfer

If either Nav receiver fails, the VHF NAV transfer switch may be used to display the functioning Nav information onto both EFIS and RDMI’s. With Nav transferred, the MCP course selector on the serviceable side becomes the master, but all other EFIS selections remain independent.

If an IRS fails, the IRS transfer switch is used to switch all associated systems to the functioning IRS
Image
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Re: Resolute Bay Accident - Pilots Discussion Thread

Post by Redneck_pilot86 » Thu Aug 25, 2011 2:42 pm

Wouldn't that switch be in the same position to navigate off of either the ILS/LOC or the VOR? The other selection being for GPS nav? And then wouldnt it come down to switching the frequencies from the VOR to the LOC at the beginning of the approach?
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Re: Resolute Bay Accident - Pilots Discussion Thread

Post by FICU » Thu Aug 25, 2011 4:03 pm

We have one -200 with the SP-177 and it has a full MCP with an "LNAV" button. There is no switch to change over. When you want to do a VOR/LOC or ILS approach you hit the "VOR/LOC" and "APP" buttons as you would in a Classic or NG. I don't believe First Air has any SP-177 equipped machines.

Image

In our SP-77 equipped -200s there is a push button, "FMS"/"VHF" or "FMS"/"VOR/LOC" and a few have another "LNAV" push button, depending on the airplane and FMS installed. This is for flight director and autopilot coupling. It is used to switch between GPS nav and VHF nav and I'm sure First Air's aircraft would have something similar.

The instrument transfer switches are redundancy switches and are used in case of failure of a VG, DG, or VHF nav on either the Capt. or F/O side.
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Re: Resolute Bay Accident - Pilots Discussion Thread

Post by SMjett » Thu Aug 25, 2011 4:36 pm

So the $64K question: is there any plausible scenario (with either the SP-77 or SP-177 AFCS) where the HSI would indicate the deviation from the VOR track instead of the localizer while they were showing a good GP indication?
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Re: Resolute Bay Accident - Pilots Discussion Thread

Post by FICU » Thu Aug 25, 2011 6:56 pm

With the SP-77, while in VHF nav mode, the only time there would be G/S indication would be with a valid ILS tuned up and the mode switch in "VHF" or "VOR/LOC", depending on the installation.

When in FMS mode, if First Air has an FMS system with pseudo G/S capability for RNAV approaches, as we do, the G/S is not available for RNAV approaches using ILS or LOC/BC RNAV waypoints. It is only available on non-precision RNAV approaches and WAAS approaches.
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Re: Resolute Bay Accident - Pilots Discussion Thread

Post by 55+ » Thu Aug 25, 2011 8:38 pm

In my previous capacity with the Regulator and the Service Provider, I had a few discussions with the TSB folks, even gave them (at their request) an interpretation on TP-308 criteria for investigation proposes. TSB indicated several times (to me) if reliable data is available in the initial stage Field Phase, they can determine within a few days the direction the investigation is going to take. I’ll bet they have a very good idea now but the biggest stage is” why”……..
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Re: Resolute Bay Accident - Pilots Discussion Thread

Post by cncpc » Thu Aug 25, 2011 8:43 pm

At present, approach planning is under investigation.
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Re: Resolute Bay Accident - Pilots Discussion Thread

Post by BEFAN5 » Fri Aug 26, 2011 5:30 am

The @#$! me Switch
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Re: Resolute Bay Accident - Pilots Discussion Thread

Post by Lost in Saigon » Fri Aug 26, 2011 6:29 am

The TSB says they were doing a ILS/DME 35T approach. Even if there was a switch that could have caused them to track the VOR, they would have done a missed approach when they reached 397' on the glideslope. That would have occurred farther back over flat ground.

The survivors say it was a normal approach until they hit, so there was no missed approach.

That tells me they were NOT using the glideslope at all.
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Re: Resolute Bay Accident - Pilots Discussion Thread

Post by flyerboy101 » Fri Aug 26, 2011 7:56 am

I used to fly for Bradley in 1976-77 in resolute on DC3 and twin otter.The first thing I noticed about those hills to the east was the aircraft wreckage.I am sure I counted 3 or 4 crashed airplanes.It was a challenge to get in and out of resolute with the fog,snow low vis or 0-0 weather that only occurred over the airport.Sometimes we had to land on the road down by the village in the twin otter and taxi up to the airport.I am sure everyone will look forward to the complete results of the TSB investigation.In the mean time I look forward to all the possible scenarios posted by all you professional pilots and crew as information is knowledge and we just want to prevent accidents in the future. Fly Safe
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Re: Resolute Bay Accident - Pilots Discussion Thread

Post by fbcs » Fri Aug 26, 2011 8:13 am

What other approaches are there for 35T (besides the ILS/DME)? I don't have YRB plates. The TSB website states they were on approach to 35T...where does it say they were doing the ILS/DME? Anyone have a link to that info?
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Re: Resolute Bay Accident - Pilots Discussion Thread

Post by gwengler » Fri Aug 26, 2011 8:20 am

Even if there was a switch that could have caused them to track the VOR, they would have done a missed approach when they reached 397' on the glideslope. That would have occurred farther back over flat ground.
No, that would not have been the case in the mistaken VOR scenario/speculation. They would have had an indication that the GS was U/S; therefore they would have continued on what they would have believed to be the LOC 350T approach and would have continued to 540'. The missed approach point is 0.2DME from IRB, but their DME would heve been the VOR and they would have hit the hills almost precisely where they did.

Nothing I have read here contradicts the VOR scenario/speculation; however, that does not at all mean that this is what happened.

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