NT Air King Air Accident - Pilot Discussion Thread

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rigpiggy
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NT Air King Air Accident - Pilot Discussion Thread

Post by rigpiggy » Fri Oct 28, 2011 12:45 pm


Please post here for all speculative discussion.

Thanks,

stl



FWIW the TSB guy said they had an oil pressure light indication. they downplayed it like an idiot light in your car.

Condolences
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Re: Small Aircraft Crash CYVR

Post by iflyforpie » Fri Oct 28, 2011 2:13 pm

200hr Wonder wrote:Not necessarly dying or being injured in a crash but dying or being injured in a post crash fire.
These were my thoughts exactly. Unless you are blessed with a pilot door like some PA31s are, most light cabin-class twins are terrible for ingress/egress and pressurized ones are the worst because of the thick and/or small windows and windscreens. It's not until you get to large turboprops or regional jets that you have usable cockpit windows or escape hatches.

It is paradoxical that light aircraft cockpits are usually more roomy and have access to more exits.

I am wondering if this will be a finding as to risk on the TSB report.
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Re: Small Aircraft Crash CYVR

Post by AOW » Fri Oct 28, 2011 3:49 pm

rigpiggy wrote:FWIW the TSB guy said they had an oil pressure light indication. they downplayed it like an idiot light in your car.

Condolences
AFAIK none of the King Air 100 series has an oil pressure "light". They do, of course have an oil pressure gauge, and there are procedures for continued operation (to get you back home with both engines running) of an engine with lower than normal oil pressure, as long as it stays above a minimum value; preferably at a reduced power setting.

Condolences to all involved.
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Re: Small Aircraft Crash CYVR

Post by CD » Fri Oct 28, 2011 3:57 pm

iflyforpie wrote:These were my thoughts exactly. Unless you are blessed with a pilot door like some PA31s are, most light cabin-class twins are terrible for ingress/egress and pressurized ones are the worst because of the thick and/or small windows and windscreens. It's not until you get to large turboprops or regional jets that you have usable cockpit windows or escape hatches.
Seeing the photo of first responders using axes and sledge hammers trying to gain access to the flight deck of the CL-604-2B Challenger that crashed in Wichita back in October 2000 drove that point home to me.

Aviation Safety Network Database: Canadair CL-604 Challenger C-FTBZ
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Re: Small Aircraft Crash CYVR

Post by iflyforpie » Fri Oct 28, 2011 5:04 pm

CD wrote:Seeing the photo of first responders using axes and sledge hammers trying to gain access to the flight deck of the CL-604-2B Challenger that crashed in Wichita back in October 2000 drove that point home to me.
And yet the CRJ with a longer but nearly identical fuselage has a top exit hatch from the cockpit...
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Re: Small Aircraft Crash CYVR

Post by Intentional Left Bank » Fri Oct 28, 2011 5:18 pm

Looking at photo of prop: http://bit.ly/t368sr, it appears to have been rotating, albeit in course pitch or perhaps feather, at impact. Does the King Air prop feather with a loss of oil pressure?
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Re: Small Aircraft Crash CYVR

Post by RVgrin » Fri Oct 28, 2011 5:47 pm

Many people will argue that this is neither the time nor the place to speculate on the cause, let alone say anything that implies any error on the part of the crew. I respect these opinions.

However, with this many pilot eyeballs now on this forum I think we ought to take this opportunity to learn and to teach. If I were injured or killed in an accident I would want as much benefit to come out of it. And so would my family.

With that in mind I'd like to share a couple thoughts I've had. But first let me say that I am deeply saddened by this accident and continue to think of the victims and of their families. To any of you reading this, please feel free to skip this message.

To those who continue to read, please understand that I am not suggesting that I would have been been any better equipped to handle the situation than the accident pilots. Anyone may very well have fallen into the same set of traps that got this crew.

I hope we will discover the chain of circumstances that led to this tragedy, but it looks to me like the pilots may have been lulled into a sense of confidence in their situation that prevented certain mitigating actions that might have changed the outcome.

Three lessons I would take away from this are:

1) In an emergency, let them roll the equipment. It costs nothing and the potential benefits are invaluable. [ Had the ARFF trucks been ready at the threshold with foam... ]

2) A small plane with an engine problem going to a big runway should aim closer to the middle of the runway, not for the threshold. [I have no idea if this crew had planned or attempted a steeper approach (or even have been able to) but...]

3) If you have an emergency, declare it. Declaring an emergency gives you #1) and the freedom and presence of mind to do #2). [ If you listen to the ATC tapes you will hear: "there's traffic at mid-field crossing there, your'e still cleared to land, you'll be well clear....." This was at the very least a distraction, if not a factor leading to what perhaps was too slow an approach to recover from an engine out. This wouldn't have happened had the pilot declared an emergency. ]

I would be interested in hearing any other thoughts or lessons, via PM if you believe it insensitive to post such messages here and now. To those who feel that way: again, I respect your opinion, but feel the greater good is in the lessons learned.
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Re: Small Aircraft Crash CYVR

Post by flyinthebug » Fri Oct 28, 2011 6:07 pm

RVgrin wrote:Many people will argue that this is neither the time nor the place to speculate on the cause, let alone say anything that implies any error on the part of the crew. I respect these opinions.

However, with this many pilot eyeballs now on this forum I think we ought to take this opportunity to learn and to teach. If I were injured or killed in an accident I would want as much benefit to come out of it. And so would my family.

With that in mind I'd like to share a couple thoughts I've had. But first let me say that I am deeply saddened by this accident and continue to think of the victims and of their families. To any of you reading this, please feel free to skip this message.

To those who continue to read, please understand that I am not suggesting that I would have been been any better equipped to handle the situation than the accident pilots. Anyone may very well have fallen into the same set of traps that got this crew.

I hope we will discover the chain of circumstances that led to this tragedy, but it looks to me like the pilots may have been lulled into a sense of confidence in their situation that prevented certain mitigating actions that might have changed the outcome.

Three lessons I would take away from this are:

1) In an emergency, let them roll the equipment. It costs nothing and the potential benefits are invaluable. [ Had the ARFF trucks been ready at the threshold with foam... ]

2) A small plane with an engine problem going to a big runway should aim closer to the middle of the runway, not for the threshold. [I have no idea if this crew had planned or attempted a steeper approach (or even have been able to) but...]

3) If you have an emergency, declare it. Declaring an emergency gives you #1) and the freedom and presence of mind to do #2). [ If you listen to the ATC tapes you will hear: "there's traffic at mid-field crossing there, your'e still cleared to land, you'll be well clear....." This was at the very least a distraction, if not a factor leading to what perhaps was too slow an approach to recover from an engine out. This wouldn't have happened had the pilot declared an emergency. ]

I would be interested in hearing any other thoughts or lessons, via PM if you believe it insensitive to post such messages here and now. To those who feel that way: again, I respect your opinion, but feel the greater good is in the lessons learned.
RVgrin... Although I tend to agree with (and respect) most of what you said here, I do not believe its the time or place for this type of discussion. Often (if asked) the mods will start a "discussion thread" as they have with recent past accidents. That is a more appropriate place for theories and speculation. Please remember that family members come here to see what our industry is saying, and speculation at this point is simply too soon.

What you wrote was eloquent and well thought out. I just believe this thread, this soon, is not in the best taste.
Fly safe all.
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Re: Small Aircraft Crash CYVR

Post by Its What I do » Fri Oct 28, 2011 6:21 pm

Oil starvation in pt6 the prop stays where it is . it looks like left engine seized no oil. then turns into a rock.
right engine would be high power setting hence veer to left .
Thoughts and prayers with all involved . I knew Luc he will be missed .
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Re: Small Aircraft Crash CYVR

Post by oldncold » Fri Oct 28, 2011 6:27 pm

OK shit has happened , so now the learning begins So i want to ask Doc and other high time be 100and 200 drivers this ? you depart and you get a fire light in an engine on these high time a/c and you are so used seeing the false indications on the photo cell in the engine bay. you calmly follow sop's and return for landing only this time its for real . the fuel leak is now burning onto the wing spar and just short of the runway it fails/

? is this alikely scenario
2/ if the crew felt that is was routine would this explain why they did not chose cyxx instead/

NOTE NO MUD RUCKING WE ALL CAN LEARN HERE and though not much time on a 100 have seen false fire lights

once again my condolences to luc family and the passengers on this tragic flt :cry:
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Re: Small Aircraft Crash CYVR

Post by boeingboy » Fri Oct 28, 2011 6:33 pm

Not very likely.

The engine bays are located far fwd of the wing spar. The only accident close to the situation you describe is the Porpair accident in Montreal a few years ago. Wingspar in a Metro failed as they pulled into the flare to land, but that was due to a fire in the wheelwell and SOP's were not followed in that case.
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Re: NT Air King Air Accident - Pilot Discussion Thread

Post by The Hammer » Fri Oct 28, 2011 6:44 pm

Please declare the emergency and give the ARFF something to do!!!!! They're bored and it may save your life.

Where do we teach people not to declare an emergency??? It doesn't seem to get well taught until you fly 705, Why?? You are getting the CADORS anyway (who really gives a shit) and you get the freedom to to do what you need to stay alive. ATC is well trained to deal with it.


PLEASE DECLARE THE EMERGENCY AND ASK FOR THE SERVICES.

This is not aimed at this crew but the whole industry.

TG
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Re: NT Air King Air Accident - Pilot Discussion Thread

Post by cncpc » Fri Oct 28, 2011 6:48 pm

Many people will argue that this is neither the time nor the place to speculate on the cause, let alone say anything that implies any error on the part of the crew. I respect these opinions.

However, with this many pilot eyeballs now on this forum I think we ought to take this opportunity to learn and to teach. If I were injured or killed in an accident I would want as much benefit to come out of it. And so would my family.

With that in mind I'd like to share a couple thoughts I've had. But first let me say that I am deeply saddened by this accident and continue to think of the victims and of their families. To any of you reading this, please feel free to skip this message.

To those who continue to read, please understand that I am not suggesting that I would have been been any better equipped to handle the situation than the accident pilots. Anyone may very well have fallen into the same set of traps that got this crew.

I hope we will discover the chain of circumstances that led to this tragedy, but it looks to me like the pilots may have been lulled into a sense of confidence in their situation that prevented certain mitigating actions that might have changed the outcome.

Three lessons I would take away from this are:

1) In an emergency, let them roll the equipment. It costs nothing and the potential benefits are invaluable. [ Had the ARFF trucks been ready at the threshold with foam... ]

2) A small plane with an engine problem going to a big runway should aim closer to the middle of the runway, not for the threshold. [I have no idea if this crew had planned or attempted a steeper approach (or even have been able to) but...]

3) If you have an emergency, declare it. Declaring an emergency gives you #1) and the freedom and presence of mind to do #2). [ If you listen to the ATC tapes you will hear: "there's traffic at mid-field crossing there, your'e still cleared to land, you'll be well clear....." This was at the very least a distraction, if not a factor leading to what perhaps was too slow an approach to recover from an engine out. This wouldn't have happened had the pilot declared an emergency. ]

I would be interested in hearing any other thoughts or lessons, via PM if you believe it insensitive to post such messages here and now. To those who feel that way: again, I respect your opinion, but feel the greater good is in the lessons learned.
Well said in a general sense.

We are not sure what the issue was here, other than it was serious enough to come back, and not serious enough to go into Pitt Meadows.
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Re: NT Air King Air Accident - Pilot Discussion Thread

Post by burhead1 » Fri Oct 28, 2011 6:51 pm

212wrench wrote:
burhead1 wrote:Looks to me like a fire started in the nose.
How the "ef" do you know that!! What a vile and useless post. Our thoughts and prayers are with those who need them now, not speculating on what we think happened!!
Best wishes, condolences and prayers for speedy recovery to all involved.

It was just a thought as it would explain a lot. I meant no disrespect. I will also be sending money to the family when the info to do so is posted, Will you do the same?
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Re: NT Air King Air Accident - Pilot Discussion Thread

Post by The Old Fogducker » Fri Oct 28, 2011 7:13 pm

A long, long time ago, an Aeronautical Structures Engineer (ring wearing type P Eng) working at Beech that tuagh simulator part-time at Flight Safety International "for the fun of it" told me that if a fuel-fed fire gets past the firewall in a Beech Queen Air, you have a little over 90 seconds before spar failure.

Beech 90, 100 and 200 ... different airplanes from the Queen Air? Yes, but pretty darned close, and its not as if one will be a minute and a half and the rest will suddenly last for many hours when exposed to that heat.

Understand that with this info, I am merely parroting what a supposedly qualified individual said to me. The time interval being so shockingly small is what made it stick with me.

My sincere condolences to any family and friends that may read this post. It's the kind of terrible loss which affects all of us from coast to coast.

The Old Fogducker
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Re: NT Air King Air Accident - Pilot Discussion Thread

Post by howzat » Fri Oct 28, 2011 7:58 pm

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Re: Small Aircraft Crash CYVR

Post by PanEuropean » Fri Oct 28, 2011 8:04 pm

RVgrin wrote:Many people will argue that this is neither the time nor the place...
RVgrin:

A very well thought out and sensible post, thanks for writing it.

Michael
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Re: Small Aircraft Crash CYVR

Post by PanEuropean » Fri Oct 28, 2011 8:08 pm

Its What I do wrote:Oil starvation in PT6 the prop stays where it is...
I don't believe that is correct. Oil under pressure keeps the propeller out of feather. Springs and counterweights continually act to attempt to feather the propeller. If you have a loss of oil pressure, the propeller will move towards feather.

I got hit with a missile once while flying an aircraft equipped with a PT6A-27. The explosion severed both the oil lines on the bottom of the engine. The propeller was fully feathered before I could even turn my head and look to see what the heck made the loud bang.

You can demonstrate the concept for yourself without needing a missile. Shut your PT6 engine down without feathering the propeller, then, go look at the position of the propeller blades 10 or 15 minutes later.

Michael
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Re: NT Air King Air Accident - Pilot Discussion Thread

Post by iflyforpie » Fri Oct 28, 2011 8:37 pm

PanEuropean wrote:
Its What I do wrote:Oil starvation in PT6 the prop stays where it is...
I don't believe that is correct. Oil under pressure keeps the propeller out of feather. Springs and counterweights continually act to attempt to feather the propeller. If you have a loss of oil pressure, the propeller will move towards feather.
Yes, most of these compact feathering propellers have a giant spring always pushing them towards feather and are moved to fine by engine oil pressure that is boosted by a governor pump. That is why piston engined aircraft and float equipped aircraft with PT6 engines need to have pitch locks installed to keep them at fine pitch for startup/shutdown and require feathering above a certain RPM.
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Re: Small Aircraft Crash CYVR

Post by MZUNGO » Fri Oct 28, 2011 8:44 pm

PanEuropean wrote: Oil under pressure keeps the propeller out of feather. Springs and counterweights continually act to attempt to feather the propeller. If you have a loss of oil pressure, the propeller will move towards feather.

Michael
correct, most PT6 props work that way.

this is a sad and terrible day for the aviation community.
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Re: Small Aircraft Crash CYVR

Post by cdnpilot77 » Fri Oct 28, 2011 8:46 pm

PanEuropean wrote:
I got hit with a missile once....
How many people here can start a paragraph like this :shock:
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Re: NT Air King Air Accident - Pilot Discussion Thread

Post by Kingairdriver » Fri Oct 28, 2011 8:58 pm

Just a couple of 100 points
1 Some 100's have oil preasure lights, I flown ones with after market ones.
2 If oil preasure is lost the propeller should feather
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Re: NT Air King Air Accident - Pilot Discussion Thread

Post by cncpc » Fri Oct 28, 2011 9:16 pm

It was an oil leak that initiated the turnaround, with some passengers wanting to go on to Kelowna. Nothing about a fire in the engine compartment. I'm sure that would have been an emergency call.

There is a story in the Sun. Video from a passenger.
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Re: NT Air King Air Accident - Pilot Discussion Thread

Post by nightguy » Fri Oct 28, 2011 9:30 pm

I have a lot of 100 time... the oil cap being loose or undone is a very dangerous issue. In the event of loss of oil pressure a PT6 has been clocked by beech to stay "onspeed" or un-feathered for up to 90 min. At the 90 min point the test was ended. Should the aircraft slow down it should start to feather ( sorry cant say a number that it would happen at). For all the good things about the PT6 there are still some things that can make it a killer. I have lost a few friends now to the 100... and as I said I have a lot of time on it but maybe the time has come to stop fly this old bird. Given the same loss of oil pressure and a fine prop on a 200 ... I think the old 200 would have flown out of this 9 times out of 10.

So sorry to the family and friends. And all the best to the guys at NTB. Coming from Borek not long ago I know how you all feel.
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Re: NT Air King Air Accident - Pilot Discussion Thread

Post by ~Hollywood~ » Fri Oct 28, 2011 11:39 pm

One of the survivors tells her story.......

http://www.vancouversun.com/Anatomy+pla ... story.html
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