Could I Have Been Wrong?

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Doc
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Could I Have Been Wrong?

Post by Doc »

I'll admit it. In the past, when I've seen preventable accidents, I've blamed the pilot. Most of the time. I still see a "chain of events" as an excuse for a really poor decision.
But
More and more I'm seeing company "culture" as a real culprit.
Pilots have always been the last line of defence, and I still see them as the most at fault.
But
There is no backup system in place to protect pilots if they stand on their hind feet.. Because of this, many seek the easy (read dangerous) way out and continue to have these needless accidents.
Transport Canada is next to bloody useless as a defence for pilots. Don't believe me? Complain to them about company ops and see what kind of support you can expect. Nil. Nada. Zilch. Break a CARS and it's always the pilot's ass in a sling.
But
After today's accident in North Spirit, while the pilots certainly could have done a 180, or not launched in the first place, I fear they felt undue pressure from their management. Management that has NO business running an air service. Or a toilet cleaning service for that matter. These guys are bullies. Just as insidious as a bully in the school yard. But these guys are costing lives.
But
Joe Public still climbs on board with these turkeys. And, Joe Public still dies.
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Re: Could I Have Been Wrong?

Post by Go Juice »

Off with their heads!!!!
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Les Habitants
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Re: Could I Have Been Wrong?

Post by Les Habitants »

Doc, I guarentee you I am just as upset as you are, and while I agree this is probably what happened, can we at least wait until we hear more details out of respect for the pilot? What if the plane was really in trouble (mechanical, etc) and the pilot was trying to put it down because of that whereas he would not have if the circumstances had been different? We just don't know.

I do agree though, that a company culture plays a HUGE role in these kinds of things.
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Re: Could I Have Been Wrong?

Post by Go Juice »

I'm pretty sure they weren't in trouble this morning while they were checking the wx. That flight should have never left base....


Sad day indeed......
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Re: Could I Have Been Wrong?

Post by flyinthebug »

Les Habitants wrote:Doc, I guarentee you I am just as upset as you are, and while I agree this is probably what happened, can we at least wait until we hear more details out of respect for the pilot? What if the plane was really in trouble (mechanical, etc) and the pilot was trying to put it down because of that whereas he would not have if the circumstances had been different? We just don't know.

I do agree though, that a company culture plays a HUGE role in these kinds of things.
With all due respect...what if the pilot didnt put himself in that position in the 1st place? All it would have taken was a review of the forecast...then a set to tell the boss, sorry, I cant do this one today. Alot of what ifs at play in this one.

Fly safe all.
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Re: Could I Have Been Wrong?

Post by Les Habitants »

flyinthebug wrote:
Les Habitants wrote:Doc, I guarentee you I am just as upset as you are, and while I agree this is probably what happened, can we at least wait until we hear more details out of respect for the pilot? What if the plane was really in trouble (mechanical, etc) and the pilot was trying to put it down because of that whereas he would not have if the circumstances had been different? We just don't know.

I do agree though, that a company culture plays a HUGE role in these kinds of things.
With all due respect...what if the pilot didnt put himself in that position in the 1st place? All it would have taken was a review of the forecast...then a set to tell the boss, sorry, I cant do this one today. Alot of what ifs at play in this one.

Fly safe all.
Fair enough. But like I said, we just don't know. I haven't seen the GFA from this morning, but maybe it looked alright! Maybe they thought there was a chance they could get in VFR. Who knows?
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Cat Driver
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Re: Could I Have Been Wrong?

Post by Cat Driver »

Don't lose faith in how efficient the system is folks.

I'm betting TC suspends their OC real soon.
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Re: Could I Have Been Wrong?

Post by Bede »

Cat Driver wrote:Don't lose faith in how efficient the system is folks.

I'm betting TC suspends their OC real soon.
Yeah, great timing. A day too late IMHO. They never do anything until doing any other possible action would bite them in the ass.
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Re: Could I Have Been Wrong?

Post by Cat Driver »

My comments were to point out how predicitable T.C. is, they react after the fact knowing the public will think they are actually doing something.

Just go back in time to the Dryden accident.......they reacted big time to that one because so many people died.

The pilot George Morewood was a good friend of mine and I still can not wrap my head around the thought that he could have allowed company pressure to make the decision to fly that thing with all that ice on it.

Nothing ever seems to change, aviation is still in the stone age management wise in far to many cases.
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Re: Could I Have Been Wrong?

Post by B_Boomer_54 »

Realistically, there will never be a year where someone is not killed in aviation. If all airplanes were flown strictly by computers (NO pilots ,for those of you who want to be technical), shit would still happen. To say otherwise is unreasonable. I can say the same thing about auto collisions. Make no mistake, it is important to do whatever we can to mitigate risk, but there will always be someone willing to take that chance. Sadly they bring others with them. Begin by eliminating the bureaucracies and fools. That will take people, effort, and force.Who wants to lead this charge? Very few.
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Re: Could I Have Been Wrong?

Post by bbb »

I had a long lengthy post written out in the accident post. but, computer/web timed out before i could post it....

suffice to say, Transport has failed. again.... and, they don't get it, and it seems, don't care that they don't get it.

bet pretty much anything that the pilot didn't wake up this morning thinking he'd be dead today.

this kind of accident makes me FURIOUS. a company like this, continues to operate, they've embraced the all-solving SMS, they obviously have their paperwork in order, so TC says its all good. BULL***T! companies that try so very hard to be in compliance, get harrassed, nit-picked, over grammar, how many pages in Ops Man, expecting a level of knowledge in ATPL's thats already mandated by TC themselves and therefore not requiring repetition in all company paperwork. but a company like this has how many fatal crashes that definitely CAN'T be called accidents, and they keep operating!


Transport has failed pilots, and therefore failed the public. they don't give a rats ass about good, experienced Instructors and examiners leaving industry because they can't stand it anymore. in fact, some Inspectors basically say "so what, no big loss". What a shame, thats got to be passed to them from their superiors, and for sure makes it from them into industry.

TC has had their head in the sand for years about the state of flight training in Canada. all of their programs and extra safety stuff and emphasis isn't working, but they aren't listening. there's about 4 generations (ab initio to working CPL, so roughly 4 x 4yrs) of pilots that have had all this extra stuff as part of their training, but its not getting better. it seems to be getting worse, the actual basic knowledge level.

Hopefully the "younger" pilots here take advantage of the "older" posters and learn from them, you need to use all the resources available to you, and think in worst-case scenarios. "Ass, License, Job" - love that signature, and thats what i mean about worst-case scenarios.
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Re: Could I Have Been Wrong?

Post by Cat Driver »

bbb, you have said it the way it is.

I left Canada to work overseas because the top bureaucrat here on the west coast flat out denied me an operating certificate because he decided I was not properly qualified to have one.

Getting and keeping an O.C. Is all about whos ass you kiss and how deep your tounge goes.

Aviation in Canada makes me want to throw up, and it will not change as long as the status quo remains in power.

The minister of transport is nothing less than a puppet on a string, in fact most puppets are more intelligent than your average minister in the government
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Re: Could I Have Been Wrong?

Post by jona »

I have my pilots license but it makes me glad I decided to just make money in business and have my own plane instead of working my ass off for these scumbags. Maybe it is time pilots just have a general strike and ground air transport in this country until something is done. Everyone would have to do it, small charters, major airlines and cargo. Just do rotating strikes once a week. Tell people it is for their safety and pilots are tired of being crapped on.
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Re: Could I Have Been Wrong?

Post by Les Habitants »

jona wrote:I have my pilots license but it makes me glad I decided to just make money in business and have my own plane instead of working my ass off for these scumbags.Maybe it is time pilots just have a general strike and ground air transport in this country until something is done. Everyone would have to do it, small charters, major airlines and cargo. Just do rotating strikes once a week. Tell people it is for their safety and pilots are tired of being crapped on.
I don't think that is the answer. The truth is, most of us are very happy with our jobs and our companies. I know I am. Mine treats me very well and supports me very well. If I didnt' want to go due to weather, you can bet the ops manager would be on the phone with me about it, but ultimately he gives me the final go/no go choice and respects it.

Not all small carriers are crap. I was lucky enough that I managed to get out of a crap company like Keystone before I got the chance to fly there and into a very good one.
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Re: Could I Have Been Wrong?

Post by shitdisturber »

You have to remember, that everything TC has done for at least the last ten years is designed to remove themselves from any liability; read SMS in particular! Their whole plan was to point to the operators and say; "they had an approved SMS system, they just didn't follow it, it's not our fault!" My hope is for two things to happen after this tragic incident; first, Keystone is gone forever and Cliffy is never allowed to go near an airport again! Second, heads roll at TC over the lawsuits that are sure to follow! My message to the families; my sincere condolences on your losses, and sue the bastards, including TC into the ground!
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bbb
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Re: Could I Have Been Wrong?

Post by bbb »

thanks Cat

last time i said something similar after an accident several folks said i was being to "harsh", didn't have "proof", didn't "know all the facts", didn't "know the pilot". well, i do know how it works, and the thought processes that lead to bad decisions. and often, where lots of the external pressure/influence comes from.

I also know that anyone who's been in industry for any length of time and hasn't seen how bizarre some of TC's decisions, thought processes (can you call it that even? when it defies "thinking"?), or actions are, aren't paying attention or themselves have their heads in the sand.

I too think there will be a small flurry of activity, the operator may lose AOC or may not (neither would surprise me), but for guaranteed sure, there will be visits and new "procedures" and new "emphasis" forced on operators. None of which will do any good.

For god's sake (and your passengers' and familys' sakes) USE YOUR FRIGGIN' HEADS! sure, there may turn out to be some mechanical problem today, but that only compounded the situation! What was the worse-case scenario that could have been pictured with all of the information available before departure? Was the pilot provided with ALL of the information? if not, did he go and get all the information? What did dispatch (or whomever said to the pilot that there was a flight required) consider to be "all" the information needed for the flight? what did the pilot consider to be "all" the information needed for the flight? If the flight went "to have a look in case it got ok" (and by this i DO NOT mean nor condone going below whatever the legal minimum altitude is for any portion of the flight) what was the rest of Plan A (because if you're going to "just have a look", you're not really expecting to get in, right?!) What was Plan B when Plan A didn't work out? What was the fuel situation? was it based on getting in, or Plan A, or Plan B? What was the autopilot situation? since this was a single-pilot operation, if the flight was going to be operating in IFR conditions, a functioning autopilot was required. Since reporting stations nearby reported IFR conditions, it would be a pretty safe bet that the flight would encounter IFR conditions during portions of the flight and therefore require an autopilot.

Transport Canada and certain companies have demonstrated that they don't have your back. Please please please use your heads and think about what you're doing. Think about it from the worst situation, not the best. And don't rely on other people to keep your best interests on top. Thats your job. If you do your job and keep your best interests on top, then you've kept your passenger's best interests on top. Even when they don't know what they are.
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Re: Could I Have Been Wrong?

Post by snoopy »

The trouble is, the really bad operators usually never have an accident, so, as I said in Parliament, they're able to ride on risk forever and never get taken to task over it. They keep pushing and pushing...without fear, without remorse and without retribution.

On the odd occasion where a bad operator does shed a little blood, maybe 4 or 5 people die... TC throws their weight around some, the company "reforms" and carry on - business as usual. Exactly as usual.

Then consider the the "good operators". A a "really great" company that springs to mind... one with two fatal accidents - you figure this company HAS to have reformed. As in REALLY reformed. Only...you find they haven't. They push, they punish good behaviour, and reward the bad..in fact they've regressed to the point of bypassing all the post-accident safety protocols put in place and they're primed and ready for number three. Does anyone care? Nope, and Transport doesn't ever look at the "good" operators.

The only people that are going to save us is ourselves, and if we can someday manage to rile up the traveling public to the point of outrage, we might have a fighting chance at forcing some accountability and results from Transport Canada. An ombudsman would help in this, and would help pilots, mechanics and bullied operators seek protection from bullying, regional disparity and policy interpretations experienced by many, at various levels of Transport Canada.

Nobody cares if 5 people die - even if 5 people die 50 times over 5 years, it isn't as motivating if 250 people die in one fell swoop. Why? Because it's all about the money. Budgets don't get spent on preventative measures, they get spent in areas of high public visibility. Unless enough people immediately become personally affected and/or interested, individually they just won't care for long enough to take action.

So remember this. Even if it costs you some embarrassment, costs you some friends, or even costs you your job - it is still VERY IMPORTANT that you remember that the only person that is going to care about, and save your ass and that of every person on board your aircraft.... is YOU.

Also remember... if you do nothing about it, by default you condone the action(s) in front of you, and are therefore every bit as guilty as the person committing the action(s).

"Tomorrow is the first day of the rest of your life." (Gramps)

Best Regards,
Kirsten B.
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flyinthebug
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Re: Could I Have Been Wrong?

Post by flyinthebug »

Snoopy...

I know we have been on opposite sides at times...but when your right you are right!

This is one of the best posts you`ve ever made.

Well said in everyway!

Fly safe all.
FTB
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Re: Could I Have Been Wrong?

Post by MacStork »

shitdisturber wrote:You have to remember, that everything TC has done for at least the last ten years is designed to remove themselves from any liability; read SMS in particular! Their whole plan was to point to the operators and say; "they had an approved SMS system, they just didn't follow it, it's not our fault!" My hope is for two things to happen after this tragic incident; first, Keystone is gone forever and Cliffy is never allowed to go near an airport again! Second, heads roll at TC over the lawsuits that are sure to follow! My message to the families; my sincere condolences on your losses, and sue the bastards, including TC into the ground!
SD....You are right on the money! I have said this before, but I didn't think anyone was listening. TC does not give a rats ass about safety. They are totally absorbed in LIABILITY. This is why Transport Canada has six floors of lawyers in Ottawa. This will be another superb example of how this new system works. Because of the system that is now in place, TC can tell the public that it was not their fault. They will show that they have done everything right according to the CARs and the company will show they they complied with their Ops Manual ...... Therefore, it must have been the pilot ....It make me sick!

At the present time, in Canadian aviation, NOTHING will happen until something happens. When the something happens, then the lawyers get busy protecting TC and proving that TC is NOT liable. The companies are protected by their Operations Manual which is a mirror of the CAR's. The last person left standing is the individual; the pilot, the engineer or the dispatcher. If death or injury is involved in the triggering event, law suits will result. Most individuals can not afford to defend themselves in a court of law, so they accept the punitive action and declare bankruptcy and slide ungracefully out of aviation. The only winners are the lawyers.

I used to be proud of my job as a pilot in this country. I had a great time and enjoyed every second of it. It was a lot of fun and we knew how to laugh and enjoy this industry. We were professional and had excellent relationships with our contemporaries, the maintenance crews, the Air Traffic Controllers and the TC Inspectors. Now ...... It is a very different industry. My advice is to keep your eyes open, your head down, your mouth shut and fly safe.
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Re: Could I Have Been Wrong?

Post by slowstream »

Just a few points to make,

1. Its all about attitude, like so much in life these days! Company attitude, pilot attitude and lets not even try and figure out Transports attitude.

2. Kristen is right, if you don't like then say "NO" loud and clear, if it cost you a job then it does but at least you'll be alive and I am certain your family and friends will appreciate that. Before any of you go and get carried away on me about losing a job, hold off, because it has cost me and I support a family on my income and we're still paying for it over a year later! If you keep quite then you're just as guilty.

3. In this world its all about (and I am very sorry to sound so cold about this) body count, the more bodies the chances are something will get done!

4. Transport Canada has only "ONE" mandate and that is to protect the minister. This will NEVER change so get over it! It won't change until the the majority of Canadians demand a change at all levels and they can't even do that for even more corrupt and useless departments that are responsible for the deaths of Canadians at their own hands.

5. SMS as we all know is a joke and will fix nothing, its Transport Canada's answer to be woefully short of of inspectors and experienced inspectors!

6. Lastly, the only way any of this will change is through constant media attention, constant public education and constant pressure on the government.
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Re: Could I Have Been Wrong?

Post by Go Juice »

Not even 2 weeks into 2012 and already a tragedy.

And then, on another forum someone post this:
And I know we should be running in free mode, but we don't.

I think that's irresponsible. Not sure if they do that because of company pressure or lack of balls to tell the boss their plane isn't equiped properly for the trip or plain stupidity and thinking you know better....


Seriousely guys!!!!!

You can fix airplanes, you can get a new boobs but stupid is forever it seems!!!
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Re: Could I Have Been Wrong?

Post by godsrcrazy »

Out of respect i will say what i feel on this forum. As much as some here beleive pilots are forced into bad situations i say that is BS. We all have voices and back bones. I have yet to find an employer that has held a gun to my head and threatened me or my family if i don't fly. I have met a few that threatened my job and to them i say F off. The fact is we all have the right to say NO. The sad part is for every one out there that says NO there is those out there that say i could have done that. Seems there are some on this forum that want to blame employers for every thing. Maybe its time some look in the mirror and say there is no job or morgage worth risking my life or anyone elses for.

It just amases me that without proper facts people are running around placing blame wether it be employer or pilot.
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Re: Could I Have Been Wrong?

Post by Indanao »

+1
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Re: Could I Have Been Wrong?

Post by Doc »

godsrcrazy wrote:Out of respect i will say what i feel on this forum. As much as some here beleive pilots are forced into bad situations i say that is BS. We all have voices and back bones. I have yet to find an employer that has held a gun to my head and threatened me or my family if i don't fly. I have met a few that threatened my job and to them i say F off. The fact is we all have the right to say NO. The sad part is for every one out there that says NO there is those out there that say i could have done that. Seems there are some on this forum that want to blame employers for every thing. Maybe its time some look in the mirror and say there is no job or morgage worth risking my life or anyone elses for.

It just amases me that without proper facts people are running around placing blame wether it be employer or pilot.
You're right. Nobody is there "holding a gun" to the pilot's head. Nobody should work for a company that even comes across that way. So, why is it happening? Even I (of "it's always the pilot's fault" fame) am starting to believe there is something in "blaming the company culture".....and I just don't understand it. And right now, understanding it, is paramount in bringing this kind of a thing to an end. How DO companies accomplish the feet of "forcing" pilots in absentia into pushing weather to this extent?
As far as "placing blame" without the "proper" facts.....bad weather, company mouth piece says weather flyable, no approach published, descended below ground level....what "proper facts" are you waiting for? And from where will they come?
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Re: Could I Have Been Wrong?

Post by godsrcrazy »

Doc wrote:
godsrcrazy wrote:Out of respect i will say what i feel on this forum. As much as some here beleive pilots are forced into bad situations i say that is BS. We all have voices and back bones. I have yet to find an employer that has held a gun to my head and threatened me or my family if i don't fly. I have met a few that threatened my job and to them i say F off. The fact is we all have the right to say NO. The sad part is for every one out there that says NO there is those out there that say i could have done that. Seems there are some on this forum that want to blame employers for every thing. Maybe its time some look in the mirror and say there is no job or morgage worth risking my life or anyone elses for.

It just amases me that without proper facts people are running around placing blame wether it be employer or pilot.
You're right. Nobody is there "holding a gun" to the pilot's head. Nobody should work for a company that even comes across that way. So, why is it happening? Even I (of "it's always the pilot's fault" fame) am starting to believe there is something in "blaming the company culture".....and I just don't understand it. And right now, understanding it, is paramount in bringing this kind of a thing to an end. How DO companies accomplish the feet of "forcing" pilots in absentia into pushing weather to this extent?
As far as "placing blame" without the "proper" facts.....bad weather, company mouth piece says weather flyable, no approach published, descended below ground level....what "proper facts" are you waiting for? And from where will they come?

Some of the things you have said maybe true. However there are a lot of other things that could have happened. For instance It is very possible the pilot got disorientated and lost control. Maybe he should not have even left but ultimately the final choice was the Pilots no matter how much pressure he got. Sorry to say that but it is the fact it goes back to just saying No and as i said earlier there is always someone else that may say i can do it. I have no idea who the pilot was maybe he was one of those that felt he could do it.
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