Could I Have Been Wrong?

[Cat Driver]

Out here on the west coast an operator with about the same reputation as Keystone was paid five million dollars in their lawsuit against TC.

The settlement was made out of court so we will probably never know why.

Could these guys maybe collect a big settlement in the same way?

Is it possible that to prevent anyone knowing what really happens behind closed doors in T.C. The taxpayers could be on the hook again?

[rapid602]

This was a tragic accident, with many factors and weather plays a very important one.
The pilot making decisions, also play a part. A very large part. Sometimes when you launch with good intentions, there comes a time when you have to look at the reality that the only way to safely complete your mission is to return to base or to divert to some place that you can hold over till you can complete your mission. There are some off you how are harsh on employers and harsh on Transport Canada. But lets not loose sight of what it is that we do and how dangerous it is. Every time you strap an aircraft to you body and launch into the wild blue yonder, you know that it is many decisions that you make that get you to where you are going.

Lets learn from what happened, lets hear all the facts, and lets make decisions, that make us get home at night, some people of these families are going to have very different lives from this day forward. My thoughts are with them. Please fly safe and please learn when to divert, or at least keep a bad situation from getting worse. Having bad weather in front of you, ice on your wings, and no altitude is not a good situation in any airplane, which any pilot wants ever. So lets learn the lessons and pray for the families involved. Please fly safe.

[Cat Driver]

There are some off you how are harsh on employers and harsh on Transport Canada.

Unfortunately those of us who are harsh on some employers and T.C. are in the minority which is one of the reasons the industry is so poorly regulated.

T.C. are the government body that approves and issues the operating certificates for " ALL " companies in Canada.

Issuing the O.C. is the least important part of their mandate, regulating the industry is their most important function, which they are failing to do.

They are your employees and if you let them get away with failure to do their duty you are part of the problem.

[Bushav8er]

Changing the political party in charge is one thing, the problem is changing the bureaucrats that actually run things.

I have yet to see, or hear, of ANY flight that was worth risking a life over...nothing is so important it can't happen another day - period

[flyinthebug]

Changing the political party in charge is one thing, the problem is changing the bureaucrats that actually run things.

I have yet to see, or hear, of ANY flight that was worth risking a life over...nothing is so important it can't happen another day - period

I agree with most of what you say here Bushav8er but I would suggest there is a time when risking your life flying is worth it...and that is when on medevac. I recall an incident when I was flying as a co-pilot for a medevac op in MB. I had just flown 14 1/2 hours non stop back and forth from YTH-YWG in poor weather. We landed back at the base both exhausted. The CP calls us as we walked in the office and told us we had to go back to YTH and pick up a patient for emergency transfer to YWG. We initially said no we cant were dutied and tired etc. The CP said, I wouldnt normally ask this, but this patient is going to die if we dont get them to YWG in the next 3 hours(all our other aircraft were out or had no crews). We felt a moral obligation to do the flight. So we did. When we landed in YWG and the patients family thanked us so much etc, it kinda made it worth it. We were dog tired and had worked 20 hrs straight by the time we hit the hotel in YWG. In that instance, when a life is at stake...I feel its morally something you cant ignore. I know the operation should have adequate crews and in most instances they do. From time to time in the medevac world, you sometimes have to push yourself in order to save another persons life.

My 2 cents.
Fly safe all.

[Bushav8er]

Flight duty aside I'll ask;

1) was the weather legal and
2) excluding the patient, how many were on board?

I go ahead with this knowing that an argument may be made for such a case but...

Assuming the weather was legal, you took the usual calculated risk for the flight - doesn't apply to the 'being pushed' scenario. If it wasn't you are saying that trading x number of lives for 1 is a balanced measure of risk?

Moral obligation may be felt, may even make one feel good if they succeed, but what-if the flight hadn't worked as planned and x number plus the patient are now dead - worth the risk? How much are dead heroes worth?

[Doc]

Funny thing about duty days. It's a fine line we walk sometimes. While it's not legal to go over duty times, there are times when it's perfectly safe to do so.
I know I've been "bright eyed and bushy tailed" after 15 or 6 hours on some days, and felt like a "sack of shit" after 10 hours on others. I fully realize the need for limits here, if simply to avoid been pushed when your feel like that aforementioned "sack", but..
Not naming dates or times, but we were totally time ex when landing at an airport, literally 20 minutes from home. The math. We could put the airplane to bed (winter), call a cab, check into a hotel......that would be, at least 1.5-2.0 hours before we would be settled, OR we could fly the "illegal" 20 minutes, have the bird in the barn in 15 minutes and be home 20 minutes after that. One of the times where illegal does not mean unsafe.

[flyinthebug]

Flight duty aside I'll ask;

1) was the weather legal and Yes
2) excluding the patient, how many were on board?2 pilots, the patient, flight nurse 4 total.
I go ahead with this knowing that an argument may be made for such a case but...

Assuming the weather was legal, you took the usual calculated risk for the flight - doesn't apply to the 'being pushed' scenario. If it wasn't you are saying that trading x number of lives for 1 is a balanced measure of risk? No sir. Im suggesting that if we didnt do the flight, the patient would have died. That left us in a moral dilemma.

Moral obligation may be felt, may even make one feel good if they succeed, but what-if the flight hadn't worked as planned and x number plus the patient are now dead - worth the risk? How much are dead heroes worth?

We were hardly trying to be heros. The wx was legal and although we were dog tired, we knew we could complete the mission with very little additional risk. Again ill stress the importance of having 2 crew! SPIFR I wouldnt have even considered it...as the wx was bad but legal. We just wanted to do the right thing, and in this instance, it involved breaking a duty time reg. No other regs were broken or bent in the making of this (true) story.

Fly safe all.

*Edit to fix quote*

[Bushav8er]

Then in this case I agree with you, and Doc, regarding flight duty time.

My point is this flight was a legal and doable, and I would have done it too.

My argument is with the 'being pushed/bullied' group, facing bad, illegal weather, not saying 'no' - is it worth a life (or more)?

[godsrcrazy]

Changing the political party in charge is one thing, the problem is changing the bureaucrats that actually run things.

I have yet to see, or hear, of ANY flight that was worth risking a life over...nothing is so important it can't happen another day - period

I agree with most of what you say here Bushav8er but I would suggest there is a time when risking your life flying is worth it...and that is when on medevac. I recall an incident when I was flying as a co-pilot for a medevac op in MB. I had just flown 14 1/2 hours non stop back and forth from YTH-YWG in poor weather. We landed back at the base both exhausted. The CP calls us as we walked in the office and told us we had to go back to YTH and pick up a patient for emergency transfer to YWG. We initially said no we cant were dutied and tired etc. The CP said, I wouldnt normally ask this, but this patient is going to die if we dont get them to YWG in the next 3 hours(all our other aircraft were out or had no crews). We felt a moral obligation to do the flight. So we did. When we landed in YWG and the patients family thanked us so much etc, it kinda made it worth it. We were dog tired and had worked 20 hrs straight by the time we hit the hotel in YWG. In that instance, when a life is at stake...I feel its morally something you cant ignore. I know the operation should have adequate crews and in most instances they do. From time to time in the medevac world, you sometimes have to push yourself in order to save another persons life.

My 2 cents.
Fly safe all.

One would question why didn't the CP releave at least 1 of you. This would have maybe put 1 fresh set of eyes and brain in the front.

[flyinthebug]

One would question why didn't the CP releave at least 1 of you. This would have maybe put 1 fresh set of eyes and brain in the front.

CP was in YWG...hence why he called us...we were based in YCR and the patient was in YTH. It was time sensative and even if he jumped in the Cheyene and came up, it would have been too late for the patient (transplant patient and the organ was waiting in YWG). It was not an option for the CP to take the flight.

Fly safe all.

[Doc]

One would question why didn't the CP releave at least 1 of you. This would have maybe put 1 fresh set of eyes and brain in the front.

Nobody's going to bust a duty day launching from their home base? That would be very bad form. And indefensible. You'd get your ass violated for sure for that one. (home base is usually where the CP is)

[godsrcrazy]

One would question why didn't the CP releave at least 1 of you. This would have maybe put 1 fresh set of eyes and brain in the front.

Nobody's going to bust a duty day launching from their home base? That would be very bad form. And indefensible. You'd get your ass violated for sure for that one. (home base is usually where the CP is)

Then why did Flyinthebug write if nobody's going to bust their duty day from their home base/ base

I had just flown 14 1/2 hours non stop back and forth from YTH-YWG in poor weather. We landed back at the base both exhausted. The CP calls us as we walked in the office and told us we had to go back to YTH and pick up a patient for emergency transfer to YWG. We initially said no we cant were dutied and tired etc.

[flyinthebug]

One would question why didn't the CP releave at least 1 of you. This would have maybe put 1 fresh set of eyes and brain in the front.

Nobody's going to bust a duty day launching from their home base? That would be very bad form. And indefensible. You'd get your ass violated for sure for that one. (home base is usually where the CP is)

Then why did Flyinthebug write if nobody's going to bust their duty day from their home base/ base
If you re read this quote, you will see Doc wrote that comment not me.

I had just flown 14 1/2 hours non stop back and forth from YTH-YWG in poor weather. We landed back at the base both exhausted. The CP calls us as we walked in the office and told us we had to go back to YTH and pick up a patient for emergency transfer to YWG. We initially said no we cant were dutied and tired etc.

I wasnt clear until my 2nd post that our base was YCR not YWG (where our CP was based) I did say in my original post that our CP "called" us and needed us to go. I didnt specify we were based in Cross Lk and he in YWG.

[Doc]

I had just flown 14 1/2 hours non stop back and forth from YTH-YWG in poor weather. We landed back at the base both exhausted. The CP calls us as we walked in the office and told us we had to go back to YTH and pick up a patient for emergency transfer to YWG. We initially said no we cant were dutied and tired etc.

No way I would have don that trip. Under any circumstances. Your CP should never have put the pressure on you by even asking. There are no "unforeseen" circumstances here. None. You put yourself in a totally indefensible position. You're at 14.5 hours. You have to turn the airplane around, file, check weather, fuel.....You'd be at 15 plus hours before you even sparked up. This exactly the BULL SHITE we talk about when we talk about bullying in the industry.
This is a classic "pound sand" moment....
And, you know what? Next time, your CP will play the "the last crew did it....." card on the next poor basterds.

[Ref Plus 10]

In my opinion, whether or not you felt morally obligated, I believe your CP's policy is completely wrong. When I flew medivac, it was standard procedure that the pilots never be told what the flight was for..."here is your destination, can you go?". That aside, we always found out. I believe the CAR's makes reference to "for the preservation of human life" as an acceptable reason for extending your duty and flight time for the period beyond 14 hours (to a maximum of 17, irrespective of any other reason), so long as the PIC in consultation with all the crew members concerned, decides that it is safe to do so. Whether or not the patient is going to die, think of yourself first. It is your moral and professional obligation to keep yourself alive, no matter the cost. Of course I understand that there are those out there (myself included) that would say, "it's your job to do these flights", but at the end of the day, it's all about getting your ass home safe.

[Doc]

I can't begin to count the number of "life and death" medevacs I've flown, only to have some dumb prick WALK ON ABOARD the airplane because they have an appointment tomorrow.....and they missed the sked! Seriously. If it's REALLY important, and you can't go, they will find somebody who can!
Same rules apply for pop and chips.....or medevacs
The weather is either within limits....or it isn't
The crew is either legal.....or it isn't
The aircraft is either legal....or it isn't
Some just don't GET IT.
Not "getting it" causes accidents.

[Cat Driver]

Hoptwoit explained it best in another thread Doc.

He said he loves airplanes but hates aviation the way it is evolving.

You and I just may live to see the separation between the ability to design smart airplanes and the dumbing down of the pilots and mechanics to the point the kill ratio finally brings about better training and education of the aviation group.

Of all the monstrosities ever forced on aviation T.C. will have to drill deep to beat SMS.

[SnotRocket]

I can't begin to count the number of "life and death" medevacs I've flown, only to have some dumb prick WALK ON ABOARD the airplane because they have an appointment tomorrow.....and they missed the sked! Seriously. If it's REALLY important, and you can't go, they will find somebody who can!
Same rules apply for pop and chips.....or medevacs
The weather is either within limits....or it isn't
The crew is either legal.....or it isn't
The aircraft is either legal....or it isn't
Some just don't GET IT.
Not "getting it" causes accidents.

+1

There are 4 - 5 medevac operators in Manitoba.

[goldeneagle]

I can't begin to count the number of "life and death" medevacs I've flown, only to have some dumb prick WALK ON ABOARD the airplane because they have an appointment tomorrow

Reminds me of an altercation I had once with 'medevac' pilots on the ramp. I too was arriving using a medevac call, and, they ended up getting put behind me, so, were taxiing in when I was shut down and opening the doors. The patient literally jumped out of the airplane and ran to the waiting transportation.

After the other plane was shut down, pilots came over and started yelling at me, apparently they had a kidney on board, and, it was truely time critical, they were upset because I held them up for a walk off patient. But, they didn't know the details. Indeed my patient was more time critical, because, he was the intended recipient for that kidney. There was approximately 3 hours left in the transplant time window, and it was going to take half of that to prep the patient and get him into the OR. The kidney would be ready, the moment it arrived at the hospital.

Sometimes you have to get the full story, before you can intelligently judge the situation.