Seneca College Bonanza Report Released

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Colonel Sanders
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Re: Seneca College Bonanza Report Released

Post by Colonel Sanders »

everyone who goes through flight training wants to get it done at the least possible cost and in the shortest time possible
I hate to bring this thread back on topic, but Seneca is funded by the government - seen their airplanes? Money is no object - and takes many years.

Don't try the "no money, no time" excuse in this case.
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Brantford Beech Boy
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Re: Seneca College Bonanza Report Released

Post by Brantford Beech Boy »

Colonel Sanders wrote:...but Seneca is funded by the government...
(I'm not 100% but) it used to be before it became a degree program and was only 3 yr diploma. not sure there is too much funding anymore and if there is, it is not to the same level. I believe the students now have to pay a sizeable portion of the flight training...hence the caveat on the Seneca web page that states "Tuition fees for this program are significantly higher than other college degree programs. Please contact the Admissions Office for more information."

From talking with some more recent alumni than myself, their tuition far exceeded the amount that it cost when I attended.

and just to clarify one of your earlier comments...it was funded by the Ontario government, so not all "Canadian taxpayers were screwed".
They provided similar funding to at least 2 other aviation colleges in the province too, but you don't seem to be at odds with those programs.

Why so much hate?

Yes I have seen their airplanes. Have flown almost everyone of them including the incident airplane (not the Cessnas, they came after I had matriculated)

I do agree with your sentiment about the time. People who attend a facility such as Seneca are, for the most part, not "worried about getting done in the shortest possible time" or they would have chosen a flight school over post secondary institution such as Seneca or any of the other flight colleges such as Sault or Confed, etc.


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flyincanuck
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Re: Seneca College Bonanza Report Released

Post by flyincanuck »

I find it absolutely astonishing that the PIREP from a Captain of a Porter Q400 whom was subpoenaed by the TSB was totally excluded from the report. The aircraft crossed directly over the crash site almost immediately at 5,000 feet and reported good visibility with an overcast ceiling above them.

There is a lot mentioned about trim runaway, as well.

Do the radar images display height agl of the precip?
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HavaJava
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Re: Seneca College Bonanza Report Released

Post by HavaJava »

flyincanuck wrote:There is a lot mentioned about trim runaway, as well.
From what I understand, the electric trim was permanently disconnected...are you thinking it somehow reconnected itself? I guess it could be a possibility depending on how maintenance performed the work, but I doubt it...
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CpnCrunch
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Re: Seneca College Bonanza Report Released

Post by CpnCrunch »

If the plane was climbing at 50kt IAS, then it seems pretty clear that the pilots just didn't pay attention to airspeed - really, this is just another Colgan.

I'm not saying it couldn't have happened to me either...I did have a little scare once where I was circling overhead my home airfield trying to spot the windsock, and when I looked at the airspeed it had dropped significantly. Luckily that was day VFR and I didn't stall, but it certainly made me wake up any pay more attention to my airspeed in future. That was at about 150 hours. The instructor here had over 1000 hours (as did the Colgan captain) and was a class 1 instructor.

Perhaps we just have to say there is a certain risk associated with flying - especially at night in IMC - and sometimes things like this will happen. Adding things like Garmin ESP and synthetic vision might help, but that might make the training too easy.
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Magnetron
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Re: Seneca College Bonanza Report Released

Post by Magnetron »

HavaJava wrote:
flyincanuck wrote:There is a lot mentioned about trim runaway, as well.
From what I understand, the electric trim was permanently disconnected...are you thinking it somehow reconnected itself? I guess it could be a possibility depending on how maintenance performed the work, but I doubt it...
I don't remember 100% but it was most likely disconnected on all the bonanzas at the time. And they pulled out the circuit breaker so no one can push it in and have deferred it on all journey logs and sent out a safety bulletin with regards to it.

just to clarify some things on that end.
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Big Pistons Forever
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Re: Seneca College Bonanza Report Released

Post by Big Pistons Forever »

Another factor is training in a high performance aircraft. If a spiral dive is allowed to develop a Bonanza will accelerate from cruise to VNE in 7 seconds. Similarly the stall characteristics are not dangerous but definitely more demanding than a Cessna 172. It is pretty hard to loose control of a Cessna 172 but these guys were flying a much more demanding aircraft. Sadly it appears that the instructors skills were not up to the task. Even more regrettably the schools response was not to address the instructor experience deficit it was to impose such tight flight restrictions that most advanced training will become largely ineffective in preparing students for their first flying job.

I was recently asked for an opinion on whether or not to apply to Seneca from a young PPL. My advice was unequivocal.......Don't apply, there are other options where you can get better training for less money
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Colonel Sanders
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Re: Seneca College Bonanza Report Released

Post by Colonel Sanders »

high performance aircraft
Excellent point. Years ago, Richard Collins - I doubt anyone remembers him, now - proposed that a different instrument rating should be required for retractable gear aircraft, because of how slippery they are, and how fast they can get into trouble.

People here probably won't remember the FAA re-certification hassle of the Piper Malibu - they were routinely coming apart in cloud - but the bottom line from the FAA was that doctors should turn on the pitot heat in cloud.

I met a guy who bent the wings on a Piper Meridian. He is lucky to be alive.

It's disappointing that the TSB report didn't address this.
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CpnCrunch
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Re: Seneca College Bonanza Report Released

Post by CpnCrunch »

Why not use a retractable 182?
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slam525i
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Re: Seneca College Bonanza Report Released

Post by slam525i »

Colonel Sanders wrote:
high performance aircraft
Excellent point. Years ago, Richard Collins - I doubt anyone remembers him, now - proposed that a different instrument rating should be required for retractable gear aircraft, because of how slippery they are, and how fast they can get into trouble.
I miss Collins' articles in Flying, almost as much as Gordon Baxter's.

Would you say that proposal is still valid giving the very fast fixed-gear singles like the Corvalis & Cirrus? (I've never flown anything faster than a Cardinal, so I genuinely don't know.)
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Doc
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Re: Seneca College Bonanza Report Released

Post by Doc »

Colonel Sanders wrote:
high performance aircraft
Excellent point. Years ago, Richard Collins - I doubt anyone remembers him, now - proposed that a different instrument rating should be required for retractable gear aircraft, because of how slippery they are, and how fast they can get into trouble.

It's disappointing that the TSB report didn't address this.
Collins has some points, BUT any instructor with a Class 1 should never have had a problem here. Either that, or the Class 1 instructor rating needs some very serious rethinking. Obviously it's woefully inadequate as is.
It's a good thing the plug is being pulled on the Bonanzas. TC could pull Seneca's OC until they show their instructors are actaully qualified to perform the duties they are assigned. Student pilots, regardless of their own experience level have a RIGHT to assume they wont DIE simply because the instructor is underqualified/undertrained for the job at hand.
I find TSB reports, for the most part, so sanitized and "cleaned" up to be pretty much useless. These kids died, and the "excuse' seems to be, "my oh my, the Bonanza is a slippery little sucker, ain't it?"
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bverwegen
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Re: Seneca College Bonanza Report Released

Post by bverwegen »

The main theme seems to be is the level of experience the instructor had. I agree that higher time instructors with real IFR experience would be best suited for flight training, but the way most instructors get paid I don't believe anyone would really want to leave a well paying (or not so well paying) airline job to go instruct for peanuts. I have came across a few awesome instructors up to my CPL who have really taught me some great things, but that is with doing BIF flights and tracking, nothing to do with approaches, holds, etc, where the experience can really help out the student.
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Re: Seneca College Bonanza Report Released

Post by Brown Bear »

OMFG! that is all.....
:bear: :bear:
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