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Colonel Sanders
 Post subject: Waco at Rockcliffe, Ont
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 2:27 am 
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Sigh. Another perfectly good aircraft trashed:

http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/plane ... story.html


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pelmet
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 3:17 am 
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Looks like it was fairly brezy and gusty in the afternoon and directly across the runway if this nearby station record is representative of the region. Got to be careful in crosswinds in some of these old biplanes. Especially if obstacles make the turbulence worse. Brakes can be an issue as well if they are powerful. An upper fuel tank doesn't help either in terms of wanting to nose over.

http://www.wunderground.com/weatherstat ... =IQCGATIN7


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cgzro
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 4:04 am 
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It was 190-200 degrees and 9 gusting 16 at Gatineau when I landed at 12 ... which was after the accident. Its usually about the same at CYRO.

Glad nobody was seriously hurt.


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KK7
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 4:35 am 
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The placement of the Aviation Museum buildings (Air and Space Museum) can create a real wind tunnel between their two buildings, followed by a sudden loss of wind when adjacent to the main building when the wind is coming from the south. Can be tricky on a calm day when the wind is coming from a certain direction.


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Colonel Sanders
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 12:36 pm 
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Wind was a gentle 6 to 8 knot crosswind at the time. Greg would have had absolutely no difficulty, but unfortunately he was not flying at the time.

Another perfectly good airplane trashed for no good reason.


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Beefitarian
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 5:08 pm 
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Just to blindly speculate and further discussion on this, do you think this,
Quote:
From the article, “He hardly made the tires squeal when they landed,” said Mayer. “He is an exceptional pilot.”
Read more: http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/Small ... z1yA3QEyDt
may have been some of the issue. And I think I have been guilty of it many times.



Was the fact that he may have been very good at keeping the weight off the wheels for really smooth landings, a potential issue? The plane was still wanting to fly, a gust caused an effective increase in air speed resulting in lift. Because it was from the side (cross wind) one wing lifted quickly.


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kamikaze
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 5:26 pm 
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"Greg would have had absolutely no difficulty"

Greg is gone, it's a new pilot this season ...


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cgzro
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 5:46 pm 
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Hopefully they fix the old bird. I loved watching Gregs 2 pt landings in howling crosswinds that kept most of the spam cans grounded.


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MUSKEG
PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 2:24 am 
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I don't believe they would fly that airplane in a "howling" wind. You need to reassess your definition of what exactly a " howling crosswind" is or admit that that would be poor airmanship on the pilots part. Why would you intentionally expose a rare bird to those conditions if that is what they were doing?


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Big Pistons Forever
PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 2:54 am 
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cgzro wrote:
Hopefully they fix the old bird. I loved watching Gregs 2 pt landings in howling crosswinds that kept most of the spam cans grounded.


Me too. It sure was a pleasure seeing a master make it look easy.......


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tonyhunt
PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 3:27 am 
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Big Pistons Forever wrote:
cgzro wrote:
Hopefully they fix the old bird. I loved watching Gregs 2 pt landings in howling crosswinds that kept most of the spam cans grounded.


Me too. It sure was a pleasure seeing a master make it look easy.......

I tell my students to watch Greg do wheel landings. Better than watching a video. It doesn't matter what the conditions are, he has a light touch and is always smooth.

I think Greg will be back soon and I bet he will be doing the flying himself. He has another Waco based nearby.


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tonyhunt
 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 4:55 am 
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Beefitarian wrote:
Just to blindly speculate and further discussion on this, do you think this,
Quote:
From the article, “He hardly made the tires squeal when they landed,” said Mayer. “He is an exceptional pilot.”
Read more: http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/Small ... z1yA3QEyDt
may have been some of the issue. And I think I have been guilty of it many times.
Was the fact that he may have been very good at keeping the weight off the wheels for really smooth landings, a potential issue? The plane was still wanting to fly, a gust caused an effective increase in air speed resulting in lift. Because it was from the side (cross wind) one wing lifted quickly.

Two issues here - wheel (2 pt) landings in a tailwheel aeroplane should be done smoothly. Drive any excess energy onto the runway and you will get a sporty bounce skyward as a reward. Forcing a landing in an antique tailwheel aeroplane is asking for trouble. And then don't lean hard on the brakes while the tail is light. Wind from the side had nothing to do with it, the tire skid mark was perfectly straight, 100 feet long, then over she went.

The Citizen article seems to be describing Greg, who was not flying on Sunday:
Quote:
Mayer said the pilot was excellent at his job. “He hardly made the tires squeal when they landed,” said Mayer. “He is an exceptional pilot.”
Mayer also added that flying was more than just a passion for the pilot. “He’s been doing this for at least 10 years now,” said Mayer. “In the summer, he flies tourists around in Ottawa, and in the winter, he flies up north. Flying that plane is his livelihood.”


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Colonel Sanders
PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 12:56 pm 
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Quote:
don't lean hard on the brakes while the tail is light


When I teach tailwheel, I prefer that the student doesn't have any brakes on his side. It can make taxiing a bit challenging, but he should be able to take off and land without them.

Generally what happens when someone panics and tries to momentarily use the brakes at high speed is that they flat spot the tire without any effect except the streaks on the runway, because there isn't enough weight on the tire because the wings are still generating significant lift. Destroying tires for no good reason is not considered "best practices" in the industry.

Quote:
The Citizen article seems to be describing Greg


Indeed. Greg is an unusual individual - he has over two busy decades of antique biplane flying under his belt - I went through my old logbooks, we first flew together in his old white Stearman back in June 1991 - but has the advantage of not being really old, which nearly all antique biplane pilots are now.

There are precious few expert, current antique biplane pilots (whom aren't antiques themselves), and even fewer competent instructors for them.


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Beefitarian
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 6:28 pm 
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I'm not sure why there's no where between.
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there isn't enough weight on the tire because the wings are still generating significant lift.

And
Quote:
Drive any excess energy onto the runway

I was only suggesting that if there's gusts from the side. I want to make sure the tires are making firm contact with the runway.

Having typed that, clearly it was not an issue in this case.
Quote:
Wind from the side had nothing to do with it, the tire skid mark was perfectly straight, 100 feet long, then over she went.
Thanks for answering. I was earnestly curious.


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Taiser
PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 9:39 pm 
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What a shame! I was just in Ottawa a few weeks ago and could see the Waco flying over the RCMP training center just up the road from Rockcliffe. When I visited the museum they were offering rides in it and on a Robinson Helicopter too...was there a passenger on board when if flipped??


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EPR
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 2:53 am 
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Where is Reynolds these days?


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