Ornge Sikorsky Air ambulance accident Northern Ontario

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pdw
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Re: Ornge Sikorsky Air ambulance accident Northern Ontario

Post by pdw »

If goggles are not necessary there should be a way to convince the appropriate department, and talk them out of the idea. If there's an instrument failure in black hole, is nightvision the only way out ?

I've tried to do the weather analysis for each of these two bad helicopter accidents in some greater detail. Both have initiated while flying in similar direction at what looks like near similar pressure altitude, in a similar gradient area of a trough (so might be similar systems but 4 degrees apart).
oldncold wrote:My crew received a wx ck call shortly after 1250am, accepted with no destination we dispatched at 0100 local edst after a briefing from ornge ymo. It was a blacker than black as a coal mine night, good visibilty , light rain, decent ceilings 4600 ft . searched for 1.4 hrs air time landed at 0326 edst ....
Any other wx-info ?
The position of the accident aircraft was such that and in so tight to the departure end of 06 ....
Altitude, heading, take-off direction, ... distance from airport ...

The Feb 8 2008 TSB report for the Temagami Accident (linked above) has plus 6degreesC in its weather statement; it quotes the same North Bay metar showing temperature is at -5degreesC at 8pm. What's the procedure for submitting a correction for error to the TSB ?
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Re: Ornge Sikorsky Air ambulance accident Northern Ontario

Post by sky's the limit »

For an operation that seems to have such a difficult time conducting simple night IFR/VFR flights, and training up to standard as pointed out by SSH, I think the addition of goggles is going only serve to complicate matters. Having been around NVG technology quite a bit it's not a "fix-all" by stretch of the imagination, and brings its own set of limitations, traps, and issues, namely low-illume problems. A cloudy dark night in the Northern areas of Ontario will render them useless without enough ambient light. It feels like another expensive work around of an inherent, systemic issue at the operation. Hope not.

stl
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Doc
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Re: Ornge Sikorsky Air ambulance accident Northern Ontario

Post by Doc »

pdw wrote:If goggles are not necessary there should be a way to convince the appropriate department, and talk them out of the idea. If there's an instrument failure in black hole, is nightvision the only way out ?
?
Oh, that pesky instrument failure in the old black hole. I'll wager I have as much "black hole" time as pretty much anybody here. I've YET to witness a failure of the altimeter and the VSI, during a black hole departure. Or any other time, for that matter.
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spaner
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Re: Ornge Sikorsky Air ambulance accident Northern Ontario

Post by spaner »

Not that it means anything here but,

I have had the complete pitot/static system go out on me on a modern high performance twin. Complete failure, detected at "70, crosschecked"...to "70, negative airspeed!!" off a 2800' strip.
Do you abort through (guessing)80kts? You bet your ass I did, even if it puts you in the rubarb. Luckily, we made the end with full reverse, which was working correctly that day. It happens Doc, and in this case was as simple as a very strong rain storm with sideways rain; not an hour before departure. (AMEs pulled a half cup of water on site, (static lines) and another after tearing into it the next day)
A low speed departure into a black hole would make such a thing, well, very bad. Enhanced vision would make all the difference in such a situation, but how often would it happen, once in a career, maybe?
Nothing wrong with having them, it's just not the solution to the current problems at Ornge.
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TheRealOtter
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Re: Ornge Sikorsky Air ambulance accident Northern Ontario

Post by TheRealOtter »

Doc wrote:
CFR wrote: It's the government way. If there's a problem, throw money at it.
+1
Doc wrote:Oh, that pesky instrument failure in the old black hole. I'll wager I have as much "black hole" time as pretty much anybody here. I've YET to witness a failure of the altimeter and the VSI, during a black hole departure. Or any other time, for that matter.
+1
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Re: Ornge Sikorsky Air ambulance accident Northern Ontario

Post by EA757 »

ORNGE was warned before crash about night flights, ‘green’ pilots

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2013 ... ilots.html#
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single_swine_herder
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Re: Ornge Sikorsky Air ambulance accident Northern Ontario

Post by single_swine_herder »

I will only say "experienced" does not in any way equate to "trained, and current in proficiency."

One of my mentors made a somewhat humourous but highly accurate statement when he told me at Check Pilot School that "A pilot's instrument scan will last about the same period as a tomato bought at Safeway and put on the windowsill."

Lots, and lots of time in a log has very little to do with currency..... except that it may come back a little faster than a low time guy .... maybe, but that's sure not a given.
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Re: Ornge Sikorsky Air ambulance accident Northern Ontario

Post by Doc »

Bottom line?
Oops
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Last edited by Doc on Mon Nov 11, 2013 5:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Taco Joe
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Re: Ornge Sikorsky Air ambulance accident Northern Ontario

Post by Taco Joe »

Doc wrote:Bottom line?
It's a piece of paper.
You have an ATPL, flying right seat in a Navajo.......you're still flying right seat in a Navajo.
Now what? The "paper" won't change a thing. It's a joke, really. Isn't it?
You'll still be "that guy" I see taxiing out on gravel without first making your calls, so you'll have to stop and pick up more stones in your prop.
You'll still have the airmanship of a moron......but now, you'll have the same piece of paper a 777 captain has.....
You'll still be right seat in the Navajo, until your experience level gets you to the left seat. The licence means nothing. It really never has. It's the ratings that get you places....the licence is little more than a "sticker book".....like the one you had in kindergarten. It's the pretty stickers the teacher put in it that made it special.
The ATPL stands for...."Airline Transport Pilot Licence"......it should be issued to pilots flying airline transport aircraft. I'm thinking it a literacy issue?
Me thinks you have too many tabs open.
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Re: Ornge Sikorsky Air ambulance accident Northern Ontario

Post by EA757 »

Solar power helps ORNGE resume night flights

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2013 ... ights.html
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Re: Ornge Sikorsky Air ambulance accident Northern Ontario

Post by single_swine_herder »

The operation is going to resume IFR flights as a matter of course ....... previously only used in bad weather ...... what a concept.

They might be dragged kicking and screaming, whimpering and whining, out of the Curtis Jenny style of flying VFR.

It'll be interesting to watch that transition, because without appropriate tight oversight of the change in mindset, the risk factors are going to increase significantly if the old dogs are given Instrument Ratings and kicked out the door to blunder their way around in cloud as best they can.
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Re: Ornge Sikorsky Air ambulance accident Northern Ontario

Post by nothingbeatsflying »

Transport Canada directors of operations questioned by Ontario legislative committee about aviation oversight

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HtNMI3Rn ... 7nPA_p6lAw
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flyinthebug
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Re: Ornge Sikorsky Air ambulance accident Northern Ontario

Post by flyinthebug »

Edit...Thread drift. Ill start a new thread if its that important. 8)
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Re: Ornge Sikorsky Air ambulance accident Northern Ontario

Post by Capt. Underpants »

nothingbeatsflying wrote:Transport Canada directors of operations questioned by Ontario legislative committee about aviation oversight

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HtNMI3Rn ... 7nPA_p6lAw
And so Mr. Preuss's SMS experiment finally comes home to roost - and not in a good way. It's not so long ago where such significant findings from a TC audit would have resulted in a notice of suspension of the operating certificate. Now, these SMS inspections lead to a friendly chat over coffee and a promise to not do it again from the operator. Shameful.
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Re: Ornge Sikorsky Air ambulance accident Northern Ontario

Post by Gorgons »

If you listen to the hearing you will find that TC did issue audit findings with NOS's attached, I believe I heard them say there were at least three. The other thing to point out is that the audit was a scheduled audit, it had nothing to do with SMS as Ornge is not mandated to have an SMS program. The PVI was not a validation of their SMS program. As far as being issued an audit finding with an NOS attached, like all findings TC gives you time to figure out a fix and put it in place. They just pull the lease a little tighter when there's an NOS attached.
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Re: Ornge Sikorsky Air ambulance accident Northern Ontario

Post by nothingbeatsflying »

Ornge endangered the safety of pilots, Ottawa says

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/nat ... e15488980/
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Re: Ornge Sikorsky Air ambulance accident Northern Ontario

Post by bcflyer »

Interesting article. I flew in and around the north for close to 10 yrs and didn't receive any additional training because I was flying in remote areas. I learned by watching and listening and doing. I highly doubt that the two pilots involved were unaware of the challenges involved with flying in the North.

IMHO its a stupid statement made by a branch of Federal Government that has no idea what they are talking about......
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Re: Ornge Sikorsky Air ambulance accident Northern Ontario

Post by nothingbeatsflying »

bcflyer wrote:Interesting article. I flew in and around the north for close to 10 yrs and didn't receive any additional training because I was flying in remote areas. I learned by watching and listening and doing. I highly doubt that the two pilots involved were unaware of the challenges involved with flying in the North.

IMHO its a stupid statement made by a branch of Federal Government that has no idea what they are talking about......
I agree, unless the report is referring to the pairing of two pilots who were both inexperienced in night operations in the north... That would be a different issue.

According to articles, the captain used to fly for Ontario Ministry of Natural Resources. My understanding is that they fly with NVGs. Maybe he just wasn't used to unaided night flying anymore?

*edited for terrible grammar
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Re: Ornge Sikorsky Air ambulance accident Northern Ontario

Post by r22captain »

nothingbeatsflying wrote:
According to articles, the captain used to fly for Ontario Ministry of Natural Resources. My understanding is that they fly with NVGs. Maybe he just wasn't used to unaided night flying anymore?
No. MNR is a day VFR operation.
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Re: Ornge Sikorsky Air ambulance accident Northern Ontario

Post by sky's the limit »

r22captain wrote:
nothingbeatsflying wrote:
According to articles, the captain used to fly for Ontario Ministry of Natural Resources. My understanding is that they fly with NVGs. Maybe he just wasn't used to unaided night flying anymore?
No. MNR is a day VFR operation.

Not true, they fly with NVG's regularly.
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Re: Ornge Sikorsky Air ambulance accident Northern Ontario

Post by r22captain »

I stand corrected! tucks tail between legs……
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Re: Ornge Sikorsky Air ambulance accident Northern Ontario

Post by Driving Rain »

According to articles, the captain used to fly for Ontario Ministry of Natural Resources. My understanding is that they fly with NVGs. Maybe he just wasn't used to unaided night flying anymore?
The captain was still employed by the Ontario Ministry of Natural Resources in the capacity of Chief Pilot helicopters.
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Re: Ornge Sikorsky Air ambulance accident Northern Ontario

Post by nothingbeatsflying »

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/o ... -1.2659882

"Filliter's pilot proficiency check in the helicopter was incomplete at the time of the crash, according to the charges laid out in the document, and in allowing Filliter and his first officer, Jacques Dupuy, to fly together, Ornge violated its own "green-on-green" pilot policy."

:shock:
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Re: Ornge Sikorsky Air ambulance accident Northern Ontario

Post by single_swine_herder »

They are running an ad for a new Director of Flight Ops and also an SMS and Programs Manager.

I seriously thought of applying to be on the team to correct the multiple problems, but honestly .... the place is doomed and not willing to change sufficiently after years of neglect and the place has spun down the rabbit hole into an Alice In Wonderland type of outlandish world.

Each of the multiple bases seems to do their own thing and are like individual air services, there is no solid understanding of the concept of operational leadership, and the highly charged political atmosphere means every single effort to improve or modify the system will be examined and debated on the floor of the Legislature with them arguing over "that will cost too much money" as people attempt to make political points on each and every situation when the program has lacked operational oversight and control for many years with nothing being done to get it under control because "it is not welcome to pass bad news upward in the organization."

Then comes the Ontario Public Service Employees Union which will fight tooth and nail against any type of additional work to be done, or training conducted if it means being away from home for a couple of extra nights, or (heaven forbid) personal responsibility acceptance or increased professional performance standards. There would be union grievance after grievance for everything under the sun, eating up time, effort, and money which should instead be directed at positive change and safety improvement of the operation. Heaven forbid anyone should be held responsible for compliance for their actions and actually be fired based on performance or merit.

Anyone trying to overhaul the place will have an untenable position.

But what the heck .... why not join the long line of people who have swooped in, grabbed a huge pile of cash from the poor old govt of Ontario, and then hit the road for vacation land .... the same way that "Rain makers" used to fleece the populace during times of drought 150 years ago.
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Re: Ornge Sikorsky Air ambulance accident Northern Ontario

Post by Driving Rain »

single_swine_herder wrote:
Then comes the Ontario Public Service Employees Union which will fight tooth and nail against any type of additional work to be done, or training conducted if it means being away from home for a couple of extra nights, or (heaven forbid) personal responsibility acceptance or increased professional performance standards. There would be union grievance after grievance for everything under the sun, eating up time, effort, and money which should instead be directed at positive change and safety improvement of the operation. Heaven forbid anyone should be held responsible for compliance for their actions and actually be fired based on performance or merit.

Anyone trying to overhaul the place will have an untenable position.

So they crashed because they were in a union?
I was a 30 year member of that union and I can tell you this ....you don't have a clue about how the union works. Don't forget the government has another air service and it has none of the problems Ornge has. There is nothing in any collective agreement I've read or operated under that could care less how many days you are from home. The beech 350 guys go to flight safety Wichita, the twin otter pilots go to flight safety Toronto and the 415 has their own in house at the Sault sim. Also I would like to point out the great safety record of the OMNR. There has never been to my knowledge a grievance about training too much. There have been grievances about training not being given ...funny eh?
I've edited here to make it clear that there hasn't been a grievance about training in many many years. It wasn't filed by me and I believe it had a satisfactory out come for both sides. I've been off the payroll for 4 years.
DR
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Last edited by Driving Rain on Sat May 31, 2014 9:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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