Ornge Sikorsky Air ambulance accident Northern Ontario

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single_swine_herder
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Re: Ornge Sikorsky Air ambulance accident Northern Ontario

Post by single_swine_herder »

Didn't say they crashed because they were in a union, nor did I even go within a hundred miles of inferring it .... only that accomplishing change in a union organization can be fraught with pitfalls and undue delays in introducing change due to competing priorities, and while I don't have 30 years of union membership, I do have enough time in to know how they work both for positive and negative outcomes.

They do have an obligation under "duty of fair representation" to vigorously defend anyone and everyone who pays union dues .... inept or excellent, and in many cases I've observed in grievances or arbitrations, the concepts of merit, competence, or proficiency may as well be speaking of religious extremism.

Some unions look at themselves as professional associations, and more power to them for not wishing to be identified with the act of defending an incompetent. Large unions without professional expertise in anything beyond the CBA are a different kettle of fish.
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Re: Ornge Sikorsky Air ambulance accident Northern Ontario

Post by Driving Rain »

Whatever... :?
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nothingbeatsflying
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Re: Ornge Sikorsky Air ambulance accident Northern Ontario

Post by nothingbeatsflying »

Didn't this crash happen in 2013? Anyone finding it strange that there isn't a report out yet?
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armchair
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Re: Ornge Sikorsky Air ambulance accident Northern Ontario

Post by armchair »

Word is that IIC Daryl Collins is extremely dedicated to find every little detail to nail TC Ontario Region for its deficient oversight of ORNGE, as well as finger pointing ORNGE management for mismanaging the operation which resulted in the crash. The irony for Collins is that as a TSB IIC, he does not have any enforcement or blame mandate, but my guess is that he is willing to go as far as he can to point the finger and expose flaws in a TSB kind of way. Assuming the draft report has been in the hands of interested parties for a while and comments received and addressed, I expect the TSB to announce a press conference soon, no later than April 2016, where Dame Kathy Fox will sit at the head table with Daryl on the left and Mark Clitsome on the right and explain how TC Ontario Region was deficient in monitoring ORNGE, and how ORNGE was deficient in managing its crews. I bet there will not be one iota of blame on the two pilots or the older S76 aircraft itself. Lots on human factors though. Expect a number of TSB recommendations adressed to TC related to medevac ops, at night and black hole in particular, as well as SMS, TC oversight, CRM, FDM, pilot training and records etc. Then, well, not much will be done as ORNGE has likely addressed everything in the past 2 years.
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rotorjay
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Re: Ornge Sikorsky Air ambulance accident Northern Ontario

Post by rotorjay »

Then, well, not much will be done as ORNGE has likely addressed everything in the past 2 years.


That's the sad part, Ornge has not addressed everything in the last 2 years and has continued to utilize Green On Green on a number of occasions along with a phase 3 helicopter.
The holes in the Swiss cheese have lined up a number of times.
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Heliian
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Re: Ornge Sikorsky Air ambulance accident Northern Ontario

Post by Heliian »

rotorjay wrote:Then, well, not much will be done as ORNGE has likely addressed everything in the past 2 years.


That's the sad part, Ornge has not addressed everything in the last 2 years and has continued to utilize Green On Green on a number of occasions along with a phase 3 helicopter.
The holes in the Swiss cheese have lined up a number of times.
What is a phase 3 helicopter?

Where is your information from? Do you work there?

Do you understand that the pilot in command of any aircraft has the right to refuse to fly.

Personally, I think they are being proactive, open and transparent with their system albeit overmanaged.
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rotorjay
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Re: Ornge Sikorsky Air ambulance accident Northern Ontario

Post by rotorjay »

(Do you understand that the pilot in command of any aircraft has the right to refuse to fly.)


I appologize I was most generous when I said a phase 3, I meant a phase 2!!
No I don't work there, but me thinks you do? If so you better educate yourself on flight control systems.
I find your statement above referring to the pilot in command indicates your lack of knowledge in this terrible accident.
Please someone else take on this trol!
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Re: Ornge Sikorsky Air ambulance accident Northern Ontario

Post by Canoehead »

I just did a Google search for the term "phase 3 helicopter" and "phase 3 flight controls". Also tried the word 'three', and repeated for the downgraded "phase 2" you mention...

I got nothing. Except to say that I don't think Heliian is a 'troll'.

8 posts?
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rotorjay
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Re: Ornge Sikorsky Air ambulance accident Northern Ontario

Post by rotorjay »

Please get a Sikorsky S-76 Flt Manual bud.
Actually don't bother!
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leftoftrack
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Re: Ornge Sikorsky Air ambulance accident Northern Ontario

Post by leftoftrack »

Don't fly fling wings so can somebody dumb down a three phase helicopter and a two phase helicopter and let Mme know if there is such a thing as a 4 phase helicopter. Should ORNGE continue to fly in three phases or should they add the fourth phase. Do they only need two phases.
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RockLobstar1
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Re: Ornge Sikorsky Air ambulance accident Northern Ontario

Post by RockLobstar1 »

I'd like to know what a phase 3 or 2 helicopter is also. Could you please explain? Maybe it's a military term? I've been flying helicopters for 10 years and have never heard that term. Although I've stayed only in the VFR world (phase 1 maybe? I dunno).
Also I worked with Heliian at a helicopter company years ago and although he's not the best looking guy I wouldn't call him a troll. :P
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nothingbeatsflying
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Re: Ornge Sikorsky Air ambulance accident Northern Ontario

Post by nothingbeatsflying »

Did some searching (I've never heard of phase 2 either). Controller.com shows this Sikorsky S-76's AFCS as being "Phase II". Is that what you are referring to helijay? What's the difference between phase 3 and 2? Was the Mossonee accident on a phase 2 S-76?

http://www.controller.com/listings/airc ... rsky-s-76a
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nothingbeatsflying
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Re: Ornge Sikorsky Air ambulance accident Northern Ontario

Post by nothingbeatsflying »

Hmmm...Ornge is actually getting night vision goggles.

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2016 ... ggles.html
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Re: Ornge Sikorsky Air ambulance accident Northern Ontario

Post by AuxBatOn »

I think it has to do with the level of automation: 1 being FD only to 4 being 4 axis, coupled autopilot
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Re: Ornge Sikorsky Air ambulance accident Northern Ontario

Post by rotorjay »

Yes I was referring to automation AFCS etc. Flight Director or lack of.
The S-76A involved in the Moosonee crash was not capable of coupling to a Flight Director being a Phase 11.
It was hands on only.
No verticle/no heading no altitude pre select.
There are some of us who feel if the boys had have had this capability and used it correctly perhaps we wouldn't be here.
What really bothers me is as much as we heard a lot of statements immediately after the crash from Ornge ,going on 3 years later they are still providing the guys with a Phase 11 in Moosonee??
The point is yes, we should be able to fly on instruments with no automation but why not make things alot safer and give the guys automation on both aircraft in YMO.
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nothingbeatsflying
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Re: Ornge Sikorsky Air ambulance accident Northern Ontario

Post by nothingbeatsflying »

going on 3 years later they are still providing the guys with a Phase 11 in Moosonee
:shock:

If what helijay says is all true I think I'm starting to understand why we don't have a report to read yet. It wouldn't be hard to figure that TC would be very excited about this report coming out. So maybe the TSB is getting a lot of push back from Ornge AND Transport?
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Re: Ornge Sikorsky Air ambulance accident Northern Ontario

Post by leftoftrack »

AuxBatOn wrote:I think it has to do with the level of automation: 1 being FD only to 4 being 4 axis, coupled autopilot
Once again I don't fly fling wings. What is the fourth axis? Pitch yaw roll and???
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Re: Ornge Sikorsky Air ambulance accident Northern Ontario

Post by AuxBatOn »

Power or collective in a helo.
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nothingbeatsflying
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Re: Ornge Sikorsky Air ambulance accident Northern Ontario

Post by nothingbeatsflying »

That probe, with no sign of a report, is now the longest-running aviation accident investigation in Canada.
Seems other investigations are wanting access to the CVR.

http://www.thestar.com/news/queenspark/ ... rding.html
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Re: Ornge Sikorsky Air ambulance accident Northern Ontario

Post by Meatservo »

rotorjay wrote:Yes I was referring to automation AFCS etc. Flight Director or lack of.
The S-76A involved in the Moosonee crash was not capable of coupling to a Flight Director being a Phase 11.
It was hands on only.
No verticle/no heading no altitude pre select.
There are some of us who feel if the boys had have had this capability and used it correctly perhaps we wouldn't be here.
What really bothers me is as much as we heard a lot of statements immediately after the crash from Ornge ,going on 3 years later they are still providing the guys with a Phase 11 in Moosonee??
The point is yes, we should be able to fly on instruments with no automation but why not make things alot safer and give the guys automation on both aircraft in YMO.
This is a very valid point that has cropped up in several recent accident discussions, including the 737 accident in Resolute Bay a few years ago. I think the discussions are usually pretty open-ended, because you have the group who believe that the crew should have been able to accomplish their goals with the equipment available, and the fact that they didn't points to a more systemic problem with CRM/training/experience/competence/S.O.P.s, and another group who feel strongly that it's more important to point out that more modern equipment would have saved the day had it been installed. What I can't help wondering, and wanting to discuss, is this:

IF the automation becomes available and is installed in all aircraft, does that constitute an acceptable "repair" for the problems that caused the accident in the first place?
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Re: Ornge Sikorsky Air ambulance accident Northern Ontario

Post by oldncold »

31 months and a week since that day, It my sincerely heartfelt hope that the spouses and children of those that passed are starting have a sense of normalcy in their lives.

now getting back on track after reading those who are very familiar with the s76a and its systems.

I believe along with the aforementioned training an accident factor that may go unnoticed between the bean counting purchase of new tech and the user end on a dark night, It is the ad-hoc way the integration of new technology into existing platforms.

Most of us that have several thousand hours have seen this happen. As an example> the first bunch of ifr gps installed in panels were often in ad-hoc locations ,likely replacing an old adf or dme that probably was u/s for months.The gps /loc switches in less than ideal locations.

My point is the ergonomics of panel upgrade integration should be a important consideration of all concerned with safety, with eye on the future prevention of tragedy such has those aforementioned. caveat(I have never personally flown a 76a but have ridden in them and the ole man was a darn good wrench on them back in his day)
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Re: Ornge Sikorsky Air ambulance accident Northern Ontario

Post by spaner »

Of course it is,

I just can't read this anymore,

The ultimate point here is, that the profesionals on the front line have all of the answers. Ergonomics, equipment requirements etc. OF COURSE, I as the PIC want my wass capable GPS slavable to the 4-axis autopilot, and, even the RMI course selection slaved to the #1nav, and I (I) want that switch placed into the panel right beside the RMI indicator (on the left side of the RMI) where the #1 selector accociated with that particular instrument IS.
This is my office, and I want that selector placed "where it should be", with a little green light, I want a little green light there too, to indicate the proper selection, in the proper location.
Wouldn't that be nice.
I'm the guy that spends 5hr a day behind this panel yet I had no say in how it was layed out. What I had to do, was learn, I had to learn how the panel was actually layed out, as stupid as it was.
It's my job to police it, control it, and make sure that everything is set-up as it should be, for what it is that I'm doing.

Sometimes, shi[ goes sidways, so far so, that I have to just turn everything OFF,
Wings level, max pwr, Gear-up..flaps-up....checklist....To-Go...

"ma main gauche"

As being, the most reliable peice of equipment in the aircraft.

In my opinion, if the pilot can't reduce the BS down to "ma main gauche", then he has no bussiness being there in the first place.

You don't have to agree with me, that's just my opinion.


...
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Re: Ornge Sikorsky Air ambulance accident Northern Ontario

Post by armchair »

armchair wrote:... Assuming the draft report has been in the hands of interested parties for a while and comments received and addressed, I expect the TSB to announce a press conference soon, no later than April 2016, where Dame Kathy Fox will sit at the head table with Daryl on the left and Mark Clitsome on the right and explain how...
Well I was wrong, April 2016 has come and gone, this topic had slipped to page 2, and still no Final Report or press conference. As we near the 3rd anniversary of this tragedy, lets all not forget the lessons we already know from our endless speculations, and be hopeful the TSB will provide some valuable conclusions in order to keep the air ambulance folks safely operating.
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nothingbeatsflying
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Re: Ornge Sikorsky Air ambulance accident Northern Ontario

Post by nothingbeatsflying »

I agree armchair. If you watch the YouTube videos of TC sitting in front of the Ontario government, one quickly realizes that TC must have been in full panic mode post accident.

The conspiracy side of my mind thinks that TC and Ornge must be somehow fighting the report to the bitter end because they know a large lawsuit is going to be following shortly after the findings are released.

I'm sure TSB must be under a lot of pressure to remove certain information from the report (even though they are supposed to be separate).

Sad state of affairs at TC to be sure.
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nothingbeatsflying
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Re: Ornge Sikorsky Air ambulance accident Northern Ontario

Post by nothingbeatsflying »

About time! Looks like early summer.

https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/201 ... crash.html
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