DC-3 "Crash" Yellowknife

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Doc
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Re: DC-3 "Crash" Yellowknife

Post by Doc » Wed Aug 28, 2013 7:22 pm

Siddley Hawker wrote:Doc, our standard departure briefing in case of engine failure for the F-27 and G1 off 01 out of YWK was..... "After t/o immediate right turn to 040, climb to 3500' over the lake, right turn direct Flora Lake for the full ILS back on 01." There were times when we briefed..... "After t/o immediate right turn to 040, climb over the lake until we're out of the turbulence, right turn request direct YZV." ZV was 195 sm South. :wink:
Only shut down an engine on the F27 once. Heading for CVG, shut down over Lake Erie, landed in CLE. Restarted after we "got to the bottom" of the problem and, launched to CVG after US Customs told us..."You were never here,,,"
After we figured I'd shut it down "unnecessarily" (long story, understandable only to Dart drivers) we correctly figured we were good to go.
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Re: DC-3 "Crash" Yellowknife

Post by All Sides » Wed Aug 28, 2013 11:53 pm

lost in the north wrote:Sorry Cat, a little older than twelve. I think you and Doc have a lot to offer the young, low time pilots. Its how you do it that irks many. We all know how you feel about T.C. I think most people don't want to hear about it anymore. I think if the posts were constructive, rather than you and Doc acting like god looking down on everyone. There are many pilots as good or better on this forum than you two who come across in a much more helpful manner.
You hit the nail on the head "Lost in the North". Like a former CP told me once, "It's not your message, it's your delivery". Chucky, Doc and I have had this out more than once before. Really you two, can you make over 30,000 posts collectively and expect anyone to take you seriously? Amazingly, there have been many other pilots that have actually lived with thousands of hours without accidents. But most of us look at it that we were very fortunate and definitely lucky. I know many pilots (dead and alive) that were excellent pilots that had accidents, some were mechanical. Yes, there are some out there that probably chose the wrong career, but I think most of us are pretty good at what we do.

7500 F/W and 5500 R/W, 95% bush flying. "By the grace of god go I". Like an old bush pilot told me, when you are sitting in your rocking chair and didn't kill yourself or anyone else then you can brag. So Chucky, Kuddos to you, you made it. Maybe you should be a little more thankful and a lot less arrogant. As I have said before, you have a lot to offer. You might think about presenting in a way that someone might actually be prepared to listen to you
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Re: DC-3 "Crash" Yellowknife

Post by CID » Thu Aug 29, 2013 9:40 am

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Re: DC-3 "Crash" Yellowknife

Post by Cat Driver » Thu Aug 29, 2013 10:01 am

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Re: DC-3 "Crash" Yellowknife

Post by Doc » Thu Aug 29, 2013 10:08 am

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Re: DC-3 "Crash" Yellowknife

Post by Cat Driver » Thu Aug 29, 2013 10:14 am

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Re: DC-3 "Crash" Yellowknife

Post by All Sides » Thu Aug 29, 2013 12:00 pm

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Re: DC-3 "Crash" Yellowknife

Post by lost in the north » Thu Aug 29, 2013 1:09 pm

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Re: DC-3 "Crash" Yellowknife

Post by All Sides » Thu Aug 29, 2013 1:34 pm

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Re: DC-3 "Crash" Yellowknife

Post by Brownstone » Thu Aug 29, 2013 2:35 pm

Back to a DC3 topic. I have a question for all the experts. You land with a DC3 or any other piston powered tail dragger, with the left engine shutdown. You roll to the end of the runway and must do a 180 degree turn. Which way do you turn? :wink:
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Re: DC-3 "Crash" Yellowknife

Post by pelmet » Thu Aug 29, 2013 3:47 pm

Doc wrote:After we figured I'd shut it down "unnecessarily" (long story, understandable only to Dart drivers) we correctly figured we were good to go.
There are plenty of Dart drivers here,....past, present and future. So any details would help. Perhaps even prevent a future serious incident. Always keen to learn more.
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Re: DC-3 "Crash" Yellowknife

Post by Doc » Thu Aug 29, 2013 3:54 pm

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Re: DC-3 "Crash" Yellowknife

Post by Doc » Thu Aug 29, 2013 4:07 pm

pelmet wrote:
Doc wrote:After we figured I'd shut it down "unnecessarily" (long story, understandable only to Dart drivers) we correctly figured we were good to go.
There are plenty of Dart drivers here,....past, present and future. So any details would help. Perhaps even prevent a future serious incident. Always keen to learn more.

Okay. Good point. You know the intake anti-ice? It's electric. Well, the thing shorted out on my co's side. Started making like the Fourth of July! We were fairly light, so I punched it out and headed straight to CLE. We investigated it, called company and got the green light to continue.
With 8000 pounds of courier packages, and all the paper work in CVG, the CLE customs guy basically booted us on our way.
My CP was a very happy puppy. No engine fire! We played it safe. All is well in the world.
I have a cardinal rule. Don't fire the bottle unless I can confirm a fire. The fireworks stopped as the prop feathered, so no bottle was fired.

Back on this thread. Did these guys have a fire? What indications did they have? The cowling looks normal.
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Re: DC-3 "Crash" Yellowknife

Post by Cat Driver » Thu Aug 29, 2013 4:22 pm

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So Doc to get back on topic I like you am having a bit of a problem trying to figure out why that 3 ended up where it did.

DC3's are getting old and the airframes may not be as straight as they were when they were new.....but if it was being flown regularly it should have been close to normal performance wise.

There are many reasons an airplane does not have climb performance after an engine failure such as being over weight or maybe for some reason it gets behind the power curve and no altitude to get the speed back...

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Re: DC-3 "Crash" Yellowknife

Post by Brown Bear » Thu Aug 29, 2013 4:33 pm

Something was certainly handled a little off kilter with this Buffalo DC-3 thing. Guys should have been able to return to the airport and land normally. Did they have an actual fire? Sometimes oil on the hot parts can certainly smell like a fire. As somebody pointed out, they could have very easily killed all on board. First rule.....FLY THE AIRPLANE! Looks like these guys simply hung a U-turn and bellied it in. Panic? Perhaps. Like to know the experience level of the crew? People could very easily have died here. Why?
:bear: :bear:
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Re: DC-3 "Crash" Yellowknife

Post by bubba070 » Thu Aug 29, 2013 6:06 pm

Brown Bear wrote:Did they have an actual fire? Sometimes oil on the hot parts can certainly smell like a fire.:bear: :bear:
I saw some pictures taken by one of the passengers. There was definitely a fire, it burnt through the top of the cowling. Also heard that they could not get the prop fully feathered.
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Re: DC-3 "Crash" Yellowknife

Post by Siddley Hawker » Thu Aug 29, 2013 6:45 pm

There was definitely a fire, it burnt through the top of the cowling.
Well, that's not very nice. :shock:
Hot exhaust gas right out of the manifold might cause that, but I don't know how.
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Re: DC-3 "Crash" Yellowknife

Post by godsrcrazy » Fri Aug 30, 2013 7:17 am

bubba070 wrote:
Brown Bear wrote:Did they have an actual fire? Sometimes oil on the hot parts can certainly smell like a fire.:bear: :bear:
I saw some pictures taken by one of the passengers. There was definitely a fire, it burnt through the top of the cowling. Also heard that they could not get the prop fully feathered.

This picture was posted earlier on the site. The right engine did not feather as it was running. The way the propeller was bent the engine had to be running.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/tsbcanada/9563435527/
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Re: DC-3 "Crash" Yellowknife

Post by oldtimer » Fri Aug 30, 2013 8:33 am

Doc. Funny you should mention the intake "fire". I had exactly the same thing happen in the G1 except it happened on the left engine and on the outside of the intake heat lip so I could see it torching. Shut off the intake heat and the fire went out immediatly. Quite spectacular. On the G1, the intake heat was "wild" or less uncontrolled AC powered by alternators if I remember correctly.
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Re: DC-3 "Crash" Yellowknife

Post by Siddley Hawker » Fri Aug 30, 2013 5:52 pm

That's not a totally unusual occurrence. The center portion of the intake on both the G1 and the F-27 are not cycled like the rest of the intake and are continuously heated. If the heater switches are on the heat is on and every so often one will let go. It'll get your attention. :D
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Re: DC-3 "Crash" Yellowknife

Post by Doc » Fri Aug 30, 2013 6:40 pm

Siddley Hawker wrote:That's not a totally unusual occurrence. The center portion of the intake on both the G1 and the F-27 are not cycled like the rest of the intake and are continuously heated. If the heater switches are on the heat is on and every so often one will let go. It'll get your attention. :D

It sure got our attention!! LOL! Being that it was very dark, and the fireworks lit up the night sky. We damned near crapped! We is talking VERY bright.
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Re: DC-3 "Crash" Yellowknife

Post by Siddley Hawker » Sat Aug 31, 2013 7:54 pm

Tell me about it. :lol:

Another thing that'll get your attention is late selection of prop/intake heat if you enter icing conditions with it off. It didn't happen to me but a local carrier back in the day. They were motoring along with the F-27 at 10,000 and entered icing conditions. The Captain reached up without thinking and flipped the prop and intake heat on. When the ice came off, the left engine auto feathered and the right one coughed. That'll soil yer breeks. :D
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Re: DC-3 "Crash" Yellowknife

Post by swordfish » Sat Aug 31, 2013 9:53 pm

godsrcrazy wrote:This picture was posted earlier on the site. The right engine did not feather as it was running. The way the propeller was bent the engine had to be running.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/tsbcanada/9563435527/
It kept coming out of feather - it would not stay feathered.
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Re: DC-3 "Crash" Yellowknife

Post by Doc » Sun Sep 01, 2013 6:17 am

Siddley Hawker wrote:Tell me about it. :lol:

Another thing that'll get your attention is late selection of prop/intake heat if you enter icing conditions with it off. It didn't happen to me but a local carrier back in the day. They were motoring along with the F-27 at 10,000 and entered icing conditions. The Captain reached up without thinking and flipped the prop and intake heat on. When the ice came off, the left engine auto feathered and the right one coughed. That'll soil yer breeks. :D
One of the first things my instructor told me about at US Air......if you encounter icing conditions with the anti-ice off, it's way better to leave it off. I think it was Mohawk who lost an airplane in the early days, learning that lesson the hard way. It's pretty much a guaranteed engine out it this happens.
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Re: DC-3 "Crash" Yellowknife

Post by Doc » Sun Sep 01, 2013 6:21 am

swordfish wrote:
godsrcrazy wrote:This picture was posted earlier on the site. The right engine did not feather as it was running. The way the propeller was bent the engine had to be running.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/tsbcanada/9563435527/
It kept coming out of feather - it would not stay feathered.
This will happen if you don't turn the mags off when you feather. The engine has not been "shut down", it's just been feathered. Fuel and oil etc are still being fed to the engine....and it'll keep running, feathered, or not. You gots to pull the mixture off, and kill the mags. Don't kill the mag "master" though....laugh not...it's been done!
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