Nanchang CJ-6A gear-up landing at Oliver Airport BC [video]

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Re: Nanchang CJ-6A gear-up landing at Oliver Airport BC [vid

Post by CFR » Thu Sep 12, 2013 10:09 am

iflyforpie wrote:The prop hit the ground running. Two reasons... either it was shut down and windmilling, or it hit with power. You can hear the blades hitting the pavement, which has a bit of lag because of the speed of sound... and you can see the bent tips on all three blades. Watch it in 1080p and it is pretty clear.

Nanchang gear is partially exposed when retracted.
I tend to agree

I downloaded and watched the video at high resolution a number of times (including frame by frame) and my take is the engine was running when the prop hit. While the image has motion blur, there appears to be debris come off the runway each time a blade hit and all three blades end up curled. The approach seems fast to me and he seems to land long. This makes me think he was doing a normal landing and was expecting the A/C to slow down sooner/faster with flaps AND gear extended. Or this could all be BS, only the pilot (and passenger) know for sure.

As Beef said, thankfully no one was hurt and it looks as if the A/C can be repaired (although depending on the age, they are not worth much and may get written off).
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Re: Nanchang CJ-6A gear-up landing at Oliver Airport BC [vid

Post by beaverbob » Thu Sep 12, 2013 4:58 pm

Before posting my previous comments I was intent on the moment of impact and time of prop rotation. I never did view the last few seconds. The blades most obviously contacted the ground under power. Take a look at the very last few frames.
Time for old Bob to get new glasses. :oops:
Bob
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Re: Nanchang CJ-6A gear-up landing at Oliver Airport BC [vid

Post by Troubleshot » Fri Sep 13, 2013 5:59 am

Sounded like he leaned it to cut off to me, slight rise in RPM just before he puts it on the ground. I don't know, just a guess really. Hold on I'll call him...
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Re: Nanchang CJ-6A gear-up landing at Oliver Airport BC [vid

Post by crazy_aviator » Fri Sep 13, 2013 7:10 am

Okay, Boys and Girls, lets ALL say; "PILOT ERROR " :roll:
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Re: Nanchang CJ-6A gear-up landing at Oliver Airport BC [vid

Post by MUSKEG » Fri Sep 13, 2013 7:32 am

I am well familiar with Oliver. He was way to fast for a landing. In my opinion that was a low pass and something happened on power up. The ground loop at the end was done to keep from ramping down onto the street at the end of 36. I think that when the engine calved he put it down on purpose. JMHO.
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Re: Nanchang CJ-6A gear-up landing at Oliver Airport BC [vid

Post by PilotDAR » Fri Sep 13, 2013 7:39 am

lets ALL say; "PILOT ERROR "
'Can't do it.

I could try for "Pilot error?", but even that is a stretch for me right now.

IF, this was a landing of an aircraft (whose type I know nothing of) with gear which refused to extend, I'm inclined to say "Looked good to me!". I note that when I was being talked through a possible gear up in a three blade props plane, I was told to not attempt to stop the engine before touchdown, let it windmill. That could be what I saw in the video....

But I don't know what the reason for the slide on the flap, so I have no meaningful opinion. Like many, my curiosity has raised my interest, but really, no matter what the outcome or facts, it really does not affect my life or my flying, so it's just a "for information" no matter what the facts turn out to be....
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Re: Nanchang CJ-6A gear-up landing at Oliver Airport BC [vid

Post by Colonel Sanders » Fri Sep 13, 2013 7:51 am

I know of another 'chang that was landed gear up a
couple years ago. Was not economical to repair - it
was junked, and another used one was purchased to
replace it. Was nicer, actually.
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Post by Beefitarian » Fri Sep 13, 2013 8:04 am

Kind of like it's less expensive to buy a new printer than just the ink cartridge?
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Re: Nanchang CJ-6A gear-up landing at Oliver Airport BC [vid

Post by iflyforpie » Fri Sep 13, 2013 8:18 am

You don't do a low and over with flaps down usually.
Colonel Sanders wrote:I know of another 'chang that was landed gear up a
couple years ago. Was not economical to repair - it
was junked, and another used one was purchased to
replace it. Was nicer, actually.
We had a guy speak at the Penticton Flying Club years ago who crashed his Nanchang in the hills to the east of Oliver (he was back seat and not paying attention to the front seater). At the time, you could not get hull-insurance for warbirds... or if you could, it was ridiculously expensive, like pay for your airplane every two years... so he had to walk away from it.
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Re: Nanchang CJ-6A gear-up landing at Oliver Airport BC [vid

Post by Doc » Fri Sep 13, 2013 10:07 am

MUSKEG wrote:I am well familiar with Oliver. He was way to fast for a landing. In my opinion that was a low pass and something happened on power up. The ground loop at the end was done to keep from ramping down onto the street at the end of 36. I think that when the engine calved he put it down on purpose. JMHO.
Sure. Flaps on a low pass. Funny how nobody is willing to call a FU, a FU?
Then to say he ground looped it at the end on purpose. Sure. Want to buy a bridge?
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Re: Nanchang CJ-6A gear-up landing at Oliver Airport BC [vid

Post by linecrew » Fri Sep 13, 2013 10:20 am

Why isn't there a CADORS report for this incident?
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Re: Nanchang CJ-6A gear-up landing at Oliver Airport BC [vid

Post by Doc » Fri Sep 13, 2013 10:23 am

I realize I can be a wee bit of an ass towards pilots who don't put the gear down, and I apologize for that on some level. I've been called on it by a mod or two in the past, but I've always prided myself in doing the best job I can, and I don't take kindly to those who don't feel the same way. Now we have one on video, and the excuses continue. This guy did NOT plan this. There would have been equipment standing by. He did not pull of a ground loop on purpose. He would have had no rudder response to do so. He did not have a low and over go south on him. He had flaps down. WHY is it so hard to just admit he pooched it? With lots of witnesses, and on camera! As a group, we just have to start giving a shit!
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Re: Nanchang CJ-6A gear-up landing at Oliver Airport BC [vid

Post by FICU » Fri Sep 13, 2013 10:48 am

slowstream wrote:My perspective from the video was that he shut the engine down just before touchdown which from a very limited point of assessment leads one to believe that it was indeed intentional.

If indeed that was the situation, it was well done and executed
Exactly what I saw after a few views.
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Re: Nanchang CJ-6A gear-up landing at Oliver Airport BC [vid

Post by MUSKEG » Fri Sep 13, 2013 11:36 am

Well Doc if you are right it certainly won't be the first time I'm wrong. Next time I stop in there I'll snoop around and talk to the oldtimers on the field there. Still my opinion that the ground loop was intentional because there's a steep drop off at that end and trust me he came to a stop at the end. Ya I saw the flaps down as well. What is curious is the sudden drop of the last couple of feet once the engine stops. Looks intentional to me.
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Re: Nanchang CJ-6A gear-up landing at Oliver Airport BC [vid

Post by CFR » Fri Sep 13, 2013 1:40 pm

My opinion (which really, in the big scheme of things, is valueless!) remains that it was unintentional, BUT if it was intentional then I would suggest it wasn't the best emergency landing.
- The runway is 3200 feet, he touched down with about 1300 left to go at what appears to me to be higher than normal landing speed (with full flaps it stalls at 59 Kts). Why not do a go round and try again?
- Would you not call a PAN or MAYDAY for this? If so, why were the people on the ground unaware of the emergency?
- The CJ-6A emergency procedures call for the canopies to be open during an emergency landing. They weren't.

It does however call for full flaps and to kill the mags prior to touchdown so ...
LANDING GEAR EXTENSION FAILURE
Landing Gear Handles ........................Check Fwd/Aft
Main Air Valve.....................................Check Open
Main Air Pressure ...............................Check
IF MAIN AIR PRESSURE IS LOW:
Continue and Monitor Pressure (fuel permitting). If Air
Pressure remains low, or decreases, refer to Main Air
Pressure Low checklist (p A-5).
IF MAIN AIR PRESSURE INCREASES TO NORMAL:
Landing Gear Handle..........................Down
Landing Gear Indications ....................Check 3 Green/Poles
IF GEAR STILL FAILS TO EXTEND:
Landing Gear Handles ........................Check Fwd/Aft
Landing Gear Handle..........................Recycle
Consider reducing airspeed, yawing the aircraft or using
G-loads to assist in gear extension.
IF GEAR STILL FAILS TO EXTEND:
Main Air Valve.....................................Close
Landing Gear Handle..........................Neutral
Emergency Air Valve ..........................Open
Landing Gear Indications ....................Check 3 Green/Poles
Landing Gear Handle..........................Down
IF GEAR EXTENDS:
Monitor Emergency Air System Pressure. Land as soon
as conditions permit.
IF GEAR FAILS TO EXTEND AFTER ALL EFFORTS:
Plan Normal Approach (with Flap Extended)
Seat Belt and Harness ........................Tight
Canopy................................................Open
Prior To Touchdown:
Emergency Fuel Shutoff .....................Close
Magnetos ............................................Off (0)
Battery and Generator Switches .........Off
end of procedure
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Re: Nanchang CJ-6A gear-up landing at Oliver Airport BC [vid

Post by beaverbob » Fri Sep 13, 2013 2:11 pm

Funny how after my last reference to the end of the video, weather it was stopped or running before touchdown is still being discussed here.

Take a look at the last ten seconds of the video. Notice the pretzel shaped prop tips.


Bob
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Re: Nanchang CJ-6A gear-up landing at Oliver Airport BC [vid

Post by PilotDAR » Fri Sep 13, 2013 2:34 pm

Total speculation on my part, and I nothing of the type....
- The runway is 3200 feet, he touched down with about 1300 left to go at what appears to me to be higher than normal landing speed (with full flaps it stalls at 59 Kts). Why not do a go round and try again?
I have noticed that pilots who are planning an emergency landing, even power on, can get into a mindset, which is hard to shed on short final. They approach too fast, so as to overcompensate for landing short. If all nervous and fussed, with the prospect of a scratched plane, I expect some things like radio calls, and open canopies get overlooked.

Simply from gawking voyeurism, I'll be interested when the rest of the story emerges. It will either turn out to be a relatively well executed emergency landing, or a badly botched normal one. I have no opinion which yet. I suppose, with more information presented, I might be told here, what my opinion should be!
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Re: Nanchang CJ-6A gear-up landing at Oliver Airport BC [vid

Post by crazy_aviator » Fri Sep 13, 2013 2:46 pm

Oliver is a downsloping RWY with higher terrain on approach, with a narrow runway and bit of drop off at the end,,there is an ILLUSION of a short runway, adding the HIGH and hotter approach, A gathering that day and lack of gear warning ? and BANG,,, Ya gots a gear UP!!!
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Re: Nanchang CJ-6A gear-up landing at Oliver Airport BC [vid

Post by Doc » Fri Sep 13, 2013 2:49 pm

But, PilotDAR....they do NOT tend to overlook things like TELLING SOMEBODY they have an emergency??? Or calling out equipment?? OR preforming an emergency landing at a suitable airport?
Still can't call a "spade" a "spade" can we? I can.
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Re: Nanchang CJ-6A gear-up landing at Oliver Airport BC [vid

Post by Doc » Fri Sep 13, 2013 3:00 pm

crazy_aviator wrote: A gathering that day and lack of gear warning ? and BANG,,, Ya gots a gear UP!!!
More like a lack of paying attention to what you are doing, and "BANG.....Ya gots a gear up!!!!!"
Now (mods) I'm NOT calling anybody any names, or being impolite, but REALLY people, why the excuses? It's on a video! Nice smooth approach. Nice level wings. Perhaps a wee bit hot, but we've all been THERE, or we are all liars. Full flaps. Nice gentle flare. Beautiful gentle touch down.....Oh Yes! NO GEAR!

But, that's okay with you guys? You (some of you....too many of you) still cling to the "well maybe he meant to do it" or "Gee, so much was going on....Big gathering.....so many people.....so many distractions......it wasn't his fault..." He's on video. He pooched it! Learn from this. Don't make excuses. Be careful. Be professional. Don't preach it....do it!
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Re: Nanchang CJ-6A gear-up landing at Oliver Airport BC [vid

Post by PilotDAR » Fri Sep 13, 2013 3:33 pm

I'm not saying that the pilot did not mess up, I'm saying that I don't know. I will speculate for fun and discussion, but I make no accusations - yet.

Oh yeah, forgetting the gear is possible, and I could go on and on about elements of how that could have happened in this situation, but I lack facts!

If we get an authoritative report here that they jacked the plane, and the gear worked perfectly, then I'm right there with you Doc, but I'm not there yet, and I'm in no hurry....

In general, a pilot who forgets the gear, without some really persuasive contributing factor is a goof - it's indefensible! Believe me, professional pride and scraped paint aside, my highest motivation for triple checking landing gear position, and saying the words aloud to my startled passengers (well, my 9 year old is used to it) is not to incur Doc's valid wrath, 'cause I screwed up and slid it on, or splashed it over!
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Re: Nanchang CJ-6A gear-up landing at Oliver Airport BC [vid

Post by CFR » Fri Sep 13, 2013 4:10 pm

Doc wrote:But, PilotDAR....they do NOT tend to overlook things like TELLING SOMEBODY they have an emergency??? Or calling out equipment?? OR preforming an emergency landing at a suitable airport?
Still can't call a "spade" a "spade" can we? I can.
Doc

I'm in your ballpark, but still not ready to call the play. As long as there are reasonable (re: Occam's Razor) alternate explanations and failing to have a definitive report, the best I can do is likely ... but so what? What does calling it forgotten gear, change? The video and outcome are still the same and there are only 2 possible explanations, intentional or accidental. If its intentional, then I still can learn a few things (fast, canopy, maybe decide to go around, make sure intentions are well communicated) If it's an oversight I can still learn a few things (memorize memorize memorize GUMPS). Taking that approach means it doesn't matter to what the cause was, the learning points remain.
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Re: Nanchang CJ-6A gear-up landing at Oliver Airport BC [vid

Post by SeptRepair » Fri Sep 13, 2013 4:59 pm

beaverbob wrote:Funny how after my last reference to the end of the video, weather it was stopped or running before touchdown is still being discussed here.

Take a look at the last ten seconds of the video. Notice the pretzel shaped prop tips.


Bob
Here is a pic of the prop.
http://oliverdailynews.com/wp-content/u ... -bump1.jpg
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Re: Nanchang CJ-6A gear-up landing at Oliver Airport BC [vid

Post by Big Pistons Forever » Fri Sep 13, 2013 5:08 pm

SeptRepair wrote:
beaverbob wrote:Funny how after my last reference to the end of the video, weather it was stopped or running before touchdown is still being discussed here.

Take a look at the last ten seconds of the video. Notice the pretzel shaped prop tips.


Bob
Here is a pic of the prop.
http://oliverdailynews.com/wp-content/u ... -bump1.jpg
Ouch ! that is a MT composite prop. They cost over 20 grand.......
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Re: Nanchang CJ-6A gear-up landing at Oliver Airport BC [vid

Post by xsbank » Fri Sep 13, 2013 6:47 pm

Kinda silly to smack it on the ground...
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