Tindi Cracked Windsheild Question

[iflyforpie]

Once upon a time, a Challenger jet crashed on takeoff at Witchita, during a test flight. It caught fire. The firemen were there almost immediately and set about trying to chop through the windshield, because they could see the crew alive inside just under it.

They failed. Never opened a slot larger than you could post a letter through (a what?) even whaling on it with fire axes. The crew perished.

A windshield is never an exit; all the speed limitations below 10,000' on faster aircraft are not for the regulations, but for bird strikes. Also, I think somebody else mentioned that there are usually speed limitations for windshield heat failures too.

A propos nothing, the heated windshields are frequently the single largest electrical load on many aircraft.

We took turns with a 727 windshield and a ten pound sledge and couldn't do more than crack and chip it. It was a lot of fun, but not nearly as fun as a six foot long magnesium Kruger flap, a bonfire, and a few gallons of water.

The speed restrictions below 10,000 were as a result of several fatal mid-air collisions in what would eventually be terminal airspace.... the most famous of which was a UA DC-8 and a TWA Super Constellation that met in the sky over Staten Island in the early 1960s where the DC-8 was traveling at over 500 MPH when it overshot a holding fix and about 350 MPH when it hit.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1960_New_York_air_disaster

[pelmet]

The speed restrictions below 10,000 were as a result of several fatal mid-air collisions in what would eventually be terminal airspace.... the most famous of which was a UA DC-8 and a TWA Super Constellation that met in the sky over Staten Island in the early 1960s where the DC-8 was traveling at over 500 MPH when it overshot a holding fix and about 350 MPH when it hit.

True, but not all places have or have recently had the 250 knot speed restriction. But, there has been speed restrictions on many aircraft when the windshield heat is inop since they were certified. Why, as mentioned in earlier posts.

[Brown Bear]

This thread had become less and less about the blood curdling, fingernail biting, death defying Tindi "emergency", and more about the strength of windshields. We do get, that they are strong.

[Dash-Ate]

Once upon a time, a Challenger jet crashed on takeoff at Witchita, during a test flight. It caught fire. The firemen were there almost immediately and set about trying to chop through the windshield, because they could see the crew alive inside just under it.

They failed. Never opened a slot larger than you could post a letter through (a what?) even whaling on it with fire axes. The crew perished.

Would think they evac training would have taught them this already? Odd.

[Brown Bear]

Once upon a time, a Challenger jet crashed on takeoff at Witchita, during a test flight. It caught fire. The firemen were there almost immediately and set about trying to chop through the windshield, because they could see the crew alive inside just under it.

They failed. Never opened a slot larger than you could post a letter through (a what?) even whaling on it with fire axes. The crew perished.

Would think they evac training would have taught them this already? Odd.

It's called desperation. Not odd at all. They had to TRY something, now didn't they? The crew could probably see them. What would you have done?

[GyvAir]

Avoiding acting in futile desperation is what proper training is supposed to achieve, no? I don't think the "odd" comment was directed not at their actions, but at the fact that they didn't seem to know that their actions were futile and that moving aft a foot or two and trying to hack through the aluminum structure would have afforded much better chances of success.
Before someone jumps on me and starts talking about wires, sparks and O2 lines, etc. I’m aware of the possibilities. I’m assuming that going in through the normal escape hatch areas wasn’t an option.

[shimmydampner]

This thread had become less and less about the blood curdling, fingernail biting, death defying Tindi "emergency

More wise words from an older thread.

When your airplane breaks, get it on the ground
(preferably a runway) in a smooth, expeditious
manner.
...
The thing is, you never know how badly your airplane
was broken, until afterwards.
...
Don't hesitate, don't try to be a strong, silent hero.

If you think you might need it, you probably do.

No one will yell at you, for using the E-word when you
are trying to land a broken airplane. If they do, tell them
to f__k off.

[Maynard]

Shimmy I can never tell if your joking or not....

[CD]

Info and photos of the Challenger accident available at the ASN link below:

Loss of Control and Impact with Terrain, Canadair Challenger CL-604 Flight Test Airplane, C-FTBZ, Wichita, Kansas, October 10, 2000

[Gorgons]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Ai ... light_5390

Not a bird but a windscreen blowout all the same, at altitude it was a white knuckle, short staining affair...

[oldtimer]

The windshield on that BAC 1-11 FL 5390 did not fail and blow out, there is a frame surrounding the window and that frame is attached to the airframe with screws and a bunch of bubblegum (Special epoxy compounds). The screws were too small and the whole shebang blew out. I will bet if they were able to locate the window and frame, there is a good chance the window would still be reasonably intact.

As mentioned before, this thread is heading toward a discussion on the strength, or lack of, of aircraft windshields but no one has come up with any useful info on how to handle a window or windshield failure in various aircraft.
Now if it is a pressurized turbine airplane, there is a procedure in the Airplane Flight Manual and/or the training manual on how to handle a window or windshield failure but what about smaller airplanes.
I know there is very little in the Navajo AFM about windshield failure except for a blurb about electrical smoke but what about some of the newer airplanes? Does the new Cessna 182 or 206 discuss a bird in the windshield or do they just leave everyone to their own devices.

[Gorgons]

Agreed, just thought it was wild story to share of an extreme incident involving a lack of windscreen. Won't find anything in the AFM on how to keep the skipper inside either when physics is trying its best to reunite him with the missing windscreen.

[CID]

Oldtimer, you typically won't find an AFM procedure for a windshield that "fails" for much the same reason you won't find a procedure for a missing wing. It's something that goes beyond the OEMs obligations. If you manage to lose it, you're usually on your own.

[oldtimer]

Again we are talking semantics. The AFM for the King Air 200, 300, 350, the Gulfstream G159 and I would guess others, all have emergency procedures for a cracked or shattered windshield or for arcing of the electrical connections and all will say that when the windshield cracks, it will still retain structural integrity but you are correct, there is nothing about a totally missing windshield because it is supposed to not be possible. The BEA BAC 1-11 was a rare occurance.
Now, the side windows in a cockpit are another item. I seem to have read about an air operator in Saskatchewan that had the D window in a Beech 1900 blow out and the co-pilot almost went out with it.
I have had the outer pane on a Beech 350 crack like a car windshield but the heat still worked until we shut it off just in case and I also had the inner pane shatter on a 350 and visibility out was severly compromised so the right seater(me at the time) had to land the airplane because the right hand window was clear. Now, if I were single pilot, I think visibility out of the cracked windshield would still allow me to land the airplane, especially with help from the side D window if necessary. I was told that was why the side windows in the G159 were heated because the "warm body" co-pilot in US private operations may or may not be able to land the airplane.

[Siddley Hawker]

I was told that was why the side windows in the G159 were heated because the "warm body" co-pilot in US private operations may or may not be able to land the airplane.

I also heard that oldtimer, but additionally heard the heated side windows was an Aircraft Service Change, so maybe it was a myth.

The sliding windows on the F-27 weren't heated. I had the inner pane on one go on me once - small dice pattern - and cubes of glass wound up in the f/o's lunch. The procedure for the cockpit sliding window was to depressurize to 0 psi and descend as necessary, if I remember right.

[Brown Bear]

Had the windshield on my Goldwing let go on the 401. After squawking 7700 and doing left hand triangles for over an hour, two dudes on Vespas arrived on scene and shepherded me to a Honda dealer. Damn close call!

[Dash-Ate]

Once upon a time, a Challenger jet crashed on takeoff at Witchita, during a test flight. It caught fire. The firemen were there almost immediately and set about trying to chop through the windshield, because they could see the crew alive inside just under it.

They failed. Never opened a slot larger than you could post a letter through (a what?) even whaling on it with fire axes. The crew perished.

Would think they evac training would have taught them this already? Odd.

It's called desperation. Not odd at all. They had to TRY something, now didn't they? The crew could probably see them. What would you have done?

Dunno mate. Not sure what tool exactly the fire service has or what their training suggests.

How about taking a gas powered cut off saw with cutting blade into the fuselage.

[Big Pistons Forever]

[/quote] My question IS:

I once heard about some airplane falling out of the sky due to a bird through the windscreen creating a large enough hole, that the aircraft was unable to overcome the drag of the windshield hole.

[/quote]


FWIW

From the Emergency Procedures section of the C 172S POH

WINDSHIELD DAMAGE

If a bird strike or other incident should damage the windshield in flight to the point of creating an opening, a significant loss of performance may be expected. This loss may be minimized in some cases (depending on amount of damage, altitude, etc) by opening the side windows while the aircraft is maneuvered for a landing at the nearest airport. If airplane performance or other adverse conditions preclude landing at an airport, prepare for an off airport landing in accordance with the Precautionary Landing With Engine Power or Ditching checklists.

So, for at least a piston Cessna, a loss of the windshield should not necessarily preclude continued flight.