Gogal accident report

[CID]

http://www.tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapports-repor ... 2C0154.asp

Reading this just pisses me off.

[ahramin]

Does seem like this would have been a pretty easy accident to avoid. A ramp check by someone able to add at TC (I know I know, ludicrously unlikely), a pilot with proper training and professional attitude, or a mining company willing to find the best bidder instead of the lowest one would have done the trick.

[pdw]

The report includes very comprehensive work in describing the take-off speeds; even including the groundspeed increase leading up to the point where it began to stall. At that point "power is added" ... wasn't it already at a max power setting for take-off ?

[Pop n Fresh]

Who took a picture of the wing and why did they do that instead of removing the ice?

[Sidebar]

The report includes very comprehensive work in describing the take-off speeds; even including the groundspeed increase leading up to the point where it began to stall. At that point "power is added" ... wasn't it already at a max power setting for take-off ?

Power was reduced after takeoff. From section 1.11.2 of the TSB report:

The engine ADAS is mounted in the engine bay and records calendar date and time, engine inter-stage turbine temperature (ITT), torque, gas generator turbine revolutions per minute (rpm) (Ng), power turbine rpm (Np), fuel flow, altitude, airspeed, bus voltage, and engine exceedances.

The recovered information indicates that the aircraft took off at the maximum recommended engine power setting of 1865 foot-pounds (ft-lbs) of torque and 1900 rpm of propeller speed. The engine speeds, temperature, and fuel flows were normal. Once airborne, the engine torque and propeller speed were reduced to 1727 ft-lbs and 1847 rpm respectively, and remained there until 3 seconds before impact, when the engine went to its full available power of 2400 ft-lbs of torque in acceleration mode, with a normal rate of acceleration. The propeller rpm increased to 1855 rpm.

[CpnCrunch]

Brings back memories of this thread:

http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopi ... 54&t=95926

[esp803]

Need to let my anger subside before I contribute to this thread more productively, but a spray bottle and a scale seem like small investments at this point...

E

[Chuck Finley]

I guess he really had to get er done.

I'm sick of reading reports like this but I am sure we will again unfortunately since this type of crap is still happening every winter and according to some posters here, a little ice is okay.

[Liquid Charlie]

Regardless of content etc -- this accident report should be made compulsory reading for all those 703 guys in the early days of their trek towards old age -- operational control indeed -- is there a 703 operator out there who has it -- self dispatch -- fck -- to a group who are still mostly thinking with their little head -- not gender specific -- the very time where there should be more operational control it's missing -- some of these guys still have graduated driver's licenses -- unfortunately it has become worse over the years -- gone are career bush pilots and the mentors of years past --

Damn I'm feeling old today -- time for a beer -- stogie and some porn !!!!!!

[Rookie50]

Dumb question, what can I carry in a spray bottle for small amounts of ice -- for a light airplane (182) -- that (the liquid spray) would not refreeze? Never used anything -- only took it off with my gloves -- which takes forever of course.

[Diadem]

Dumb question, what can I carry in a spray bottle for small amounts of ice -- for a light airplane (182) -- that (the liquid spray) would not refreeze? Never used anything -- only took it off with my gloves -- which takes forever of course.

We carry spray bottles filled with Type I deicing fluid when we're going to be holding somewhere and there's a chance of ground icing. If that doesn't work for you, there are windshield deicers at automotive and hardware stores which I believe are isopropyl alcohol; they come in spray bottles already, but they're not very big, so you'd probably need a couple to fully remove a thick layer of ice.

[Rookie50]

Dumb question, what can I carry in a spray bottle for small amounts of ice -- for a light airplane (182) -- that (the liquid spray) would not refreeze? Never used anything -- only took it off with my gloves -- which takes forever of course.

We carry spray bottles filled with Type I deicing fluid when we're going to be holding somewhere and there's a chance of ground icing. If that doesn't work for you, there are windshield deicers at automotive and hardware stores which I believe are isopropyl alcohol; they come in spray bottles already, but they're not very big, so you'd probably need a couple to fully remove a thick layer of ice.

Thanks, I'll look. I started using wing covers this year which did work fairly well. Fun to put on during a cold windy day though.

[pdw]

I'm sick of reading reports like this but I am sure we will again unfortunately since this type of crap is still happening every winter and according to some posters here, a little ice is okay.

There are numerous paragraphs in this report to do with take-off conditions and the various speeds in the climb-out. The weather particulars from the two nearest stations are evidence of some decreased performance shear, plus the power reduction timed with the flap-release as that negative air is entered.

"A little ice is okay" ... is a bad day when the 'negative performance event', power reduction, flap release and more weight are happening all at the same time. This lightness of negative shear would likely not be felt on controls, but also no close-by weather stations to 'anticipate' if checking; so there's an element of surprise right there. The report outlines the accident sequence clearly, and revisiting older reports ("like this") will find some similar indeed.

"Okay" might apply to more than just excess weight, if having had it more times; just like it might apply to someone's "a little ice" if escaping any consequences numerous times before. Here it is hard to see the additional problem, the significant amount of negative shear (stronger effect enhanced by the ice / extra-payload) developing ahead of the low gradient LO for this take-off.

[Sidebar]

... evidence of some decreased performance shear ... plus the power reduction timed with the flap-release as that negative air is entered. ... Here the negative shear is not easy to see or feel ... Here it is hard to see the culprit, a negative shear development ahead of a low gradient LO ...

What you said is bullshit. You don't need to complicate things by looking for some kind of meteorological mumbo-jumbo.

What happened is real simple - the guy took off overweight with ice on the critical surfaces and stalled on departure.

[trey kule]

There are some areas the TsB do not seem to look at, particularly when it is a pilot error situation.

For example, I understand this was not the pilot's first accident. How did the company respond to him after a previous accident .

The fudging of paperwork still seems to exist. And the company culture should be examined as I understand that other companies still operating massage the paperwork to make the numbers work.

I agree somewhat with the problems associated with self dispatch, but in these types of operations there simply is no one to make certain a pilot does what they are supposed to do regarding clean surface.

It also appears that granny gas might just have some weight despite the folk wisdom truism.

It distresses me a bit to read pilots talking about a little spray bottle of some kind of liquid or another....pressure, dilution, and temperature of the fluids are important, as well as using the correct fluid. I sometimes wonder how pilots pass the surface contamination course successfully, and then head off with a bottle of car windshield deice.

This was a sad, avoidable accident causing loss of life to one of our fellow aviators, and pain and suffering to his trusting passengers. It would be nice if some northern operators would do some soul searching on how they actually run their operations.

[pdw]

Sidebar, if someone has taken off overweight and it didn't kill them, many times ... don't you see ? The same thing could go for the "little ice".

Even with both of the above, many times there isn't ANY shear. This time there is proof (read the report) in sync with the power/flap reduction and with the weight / ice determination.

The shear is only small; but here small is big, since it seriously helps the climb rate go negative with all the other factors. De-icing and staying within weight limits will probably bail you out for most smaller decreased performance shear events. So the main point was that acceptance of ice and excess-weight might only be escapable until the time where that unexpected weather-related decreased performance affects the flightpath.

Less weight and an increasing headwind with height both serve to increase climb. This report identifies all the causal factors. Weight, ice, premature power-reduction and premature flap release all contributed to the stall when the airspeed got too low just above the trees. The ground-speed increases there just before the stall, and the target airspeed is not achieved; the shear IMO must be one main reason why this time the weight and the ice were not as escape-able as may or may not have happened before.

[rigpiggy]

Is there a reduced weight for operations in icing conditions like on the regular van. If not tc may want to amend the stc for Canadian usage

[Diadem]

It distresses me a bit to read pilots talking about a little spray bottle of some kind of liquid or another....pressure, dilution, and temperature of the fluids are important, as well as using the correct fluid. I sometimes wonder how pilots pass the surface contamination course successfully, and then head off with a bottle of car windshield deice.

I'd like to point out that I only referenced the windshield deicer as a possible suggestion for a pilot to try on a light aircraft in lieu of actual deicing fluid; I always have a bottle of Type I in the back in the winter, and if that's not sufficient my employer will spring for a full deicing. I merely provided an option that could be tried as an alternative to spending an hour scraping frost off the wings, and which, quite frankly, would probably be more effective than tapping the leading edge with a broom handle, as was done by the pilot in the accident. Transport doesn't care whether you use deicing fluid, a broom, a heated hangar, or a rope, just so long as you get the contamination off, so why would there be a problem with using a readily-available product that's designed for removing ice?

[pelmet]

It distresses me a bit to read pilots talking about a little spray bottle of some kind of liquid or another....pressure, dilution, and temperature of the fluids are important, as well as using the correct fluid. I sometimes wonder how pilots pass the surface contamination course successfully, and then head off with a bottle of car windshield deice.

I'd like to point out that I only referenced the windshield deicer as a possible suggestion for a pilot to try on a light aircraft in lieu of actual deicing fluid; I always have a bottle of Type I in the back in the winter, and if that's not sufficient my employer will spring for a full deicing. I merely provided an option that could be tried as an alternative to spending an hour scraping frost off the wings, and which, quite frankly, would probably be more effective than tapping the leading edge with a broom handle, as was done by the pilot in the accident. Transport doesn't care whether you use deicing fluid, a broom, a heated hangar, or a rope, just so long as you get the contamination off, so why would there be a problem with using a readily-available product that's designed for removing ice?

Windshield washer de-icer would no doubt be fine for some frost. And think about it....after consideration, water can be useful as well. Bunch of ice on the wing but it has gone up to plus several degrees. Warm water to melt the ice instead of waiting a few hours and off you go. I don't believe that private operators take a surface contamination course.

[Big Pistons Forever]

Is Gogal still operating ?