Buffalo again

[C-GGGQ]

Nurses don't then become doctors. Two completely different jobs. Like rampies and pilots.

[Zaibatsu]

Flying around talking on the radio and flying approaches is super important and it's nice that they're afforded an opportunity to learn a trade that will set them up for life but, lol, we don't actually need them for that.

Maybe it was different where you were an FO. But when I was an FO we swapped every leg, did RCAP approaches, and 50% approach ban. I was more than a flaps and radio operator and you damn sure can’t do that single pilot.

[square]

Nurses don't then become doctors. Two completely different jobs. Like rampies and pilots.

Yeah that's why it's an analogy and not a scientific theorem. It's only analogous, and lol he made the analogy to medicine and law.

[square]

Flying around talking on the radio and flying approaches is super important and it's nice that they're afforded an opportunity to learn a trade that will set them up for life but, lol, we don't actually need them for that.

Maybe it was different where you were an FO. But when I was an FO we swapped every leg, did RCAP approaches, and 50% approach ban. I was more than a flaps and radio operator and you damn sure can’t do that single pilot.

It was not different just as it is not different today. That's not what I meant. The flight deck has certainly operated that way the whole time I've seen any of it. But yeah you can really easily do that single pilot. The RCMP does it all day everyday.

The reason there's two pilots on two crew aircraft is cause captains get a lot more heart attacks than FOs, and to double check everything and help with the minutiae like ramp stuff, and to train a new bunch of captains. Flying single pilot is easy.

[C-GGGQ]

Nurses don't then become doctors. Two completely different jobs. Like rampies and pilots.

Yeah that's why it's an analogy and not a scientific theorem. It's only analogous, and lol he made the analogy to medicine and law.

Bad analogy. Fully trained doctors do not work as nurses for 2 years to become residents. People with law degrees do not work as paralegals before articling. Closest would be ramping while getting your licenses (which I did) once licensed though waiting two years to start flying kills any skill you had.

[square]

Nurses don't then become doctors. Two completely different jobs. Like rampies and pilots.

Yeah that's why it's an analogy and not a scientific theorem. It's only analogous, and lol he made the analogy to medicine and law.

Bad analogy. Fully trained doctors do not work as nurses for 2 years to become residents. People with law degrees do not work as paralegals before articling. Closest would be ramping while getting your licenses (which I did) once licensed though waiting two years to start flying kills any skill you had.

I didn't make the analogy I responded to it

[TheRealMcCoy]

Ah no this isn't true. It would be more like the rampy is a nurse or a paralegal. The co-pilot would be the resident doctor prepping an OR or supervising nurses, or a clerk proofing paralegals work and filing briefs at the court.

It's extremely relevant what happens in ground operations at an airline. If the aircraft isn't towed, fueled, loaded and de-iced properly it's a huge issue. The captain will typically be flight planning while the FO handles the ground crew/ops in a 704 or small 705 operation. 703 one guy just does everything. None of that shit gets taught in flight schools at all and it's why rampies make way better FO's than instructors. They already know how to manage the rampies there because they know what the rampy is supposed to be doing. It's the most important part of their job.

Flying around talking on the radio and flying approaches is super important and it's nice that they're afforded an opportunity to learn a trade that will set them up for life but, lol, we don't actually need them for that.

You get out of here with your sound arguments... I went to flight school, I want a to be offered a Navajo/185 job from every operator because I earned it!

[C-GGGQ]

Again, as someone whose cousin literally is starting her articling next month as she graduates from law school, she will spend 12 months as an apprentice, 2 months prepping for the Bar exam, and 10 months acting as a lawyer under direct supervision of a senior lawyer until her training is up. Sounds like a first officer/ line indoc to me. By all means ramp at your local airport while in flight school (as a law student works in a law firm during summers while in school) but once certified a pilot is to be actually flying. I'm not saying pilots especially in northern and remote ops don't also load bags and fuel and all that stuff. I certainly did and its part of the job. Key is PART of the job not THE job.

[Diadem]

The key difference is that there are limited positions in law and med schools, but literally anyone can walk into a flight school and throw money at it until they get their licences and ratings. There's nowhere near the competition for lawyer jobs as there is for pilot jobs, and there will always be more applicants for entry-level jobs, no matter how severe the shortage gets. No one is entitled to a job just because they have a CPL, and employers can afford to offer ramp jobs because someone will be willing to accept; if two candidates are offered the position, one refuses because he's a pilot, dammit!, and the other accepts because he knows he has nothing unique to provide the company, one will end up further ahead a lot faster. Direct-entry flying jobs are out there, but there aren't enough to go around, and until the number of licences issued is restricted supply-and-demand will dictate that some people will be disappointed.

[TheWingedWorrier]

As a member of the oh-so-despised group that seems to be known as "Thumb-sucking Millenials", fresh out of the puppy mill and eager to enter the industry of sunny days and long naps between flight legs, I am curious: Do you folks see much value in a 8-18 month stint on the ramp before right seat? Seems to me that up to around 4 months of chucking bags and hauling hose would be very valuable in learning the ins and outs of the company and how the whole company machine operates, but beyond that you are simply sacrificing your hands, feet and cockpit management abilities for a chance to learn how to operate a pallet jack. Is it really in the companies best interest to depend on the pilot pool to staff their ground positions vs. hiring full time rampies who can train the pilots better and cycle them through these ramp postitions faster? Though I suppose few are troubled enough to stand out on an apron in -30 YZF unless someone is promissing them flight time in the future.

[C-GGGQ]

As a member of the oh-so-despised group that seems to be known as "Thumb-sucking Millenials", fresh out of the puppy mill and eager to enter the industry of sunny days and long naps between flight legs, I am curious: Do you folks see much value in a 8-18 month stint on the ramp before right seat? Seems to me that up to around 4 months of chucking bags and hauling hose would be very valuable in learning the ins and outs of the company and how the whole company machine operates, but beyond that you are simply sacrificing your hands, feet and cockpit management abilities for a chance to learn how to operate a pallet jack. Is it really in the companies best interest to depend on the pilot pool to staff their ground positions vs. hiring full time rampies who can train the pilots better and cycle them through these ramp postitions faster? Though I suppose few are troubled enough to stand out on an apron in -30 YZF unless someone is promissing them flight time in the future.

Hit the nail on the head. That's why dockhand is usually a whole different ballgame than rampie. Most summer dock and positions firstly teach you a lot about float operations and USUALLY include some flying time that summer with promises of full flying next summer. This in my mind is not only fine, but a good learning experience. On the other hand most ramp positions (ie buffalo, perimeter etc.) While undeniably will get you right seat on something eventually and hundreds if not thousands have used that way to start their career, have virtually nothing to do with teaching you to be a better first officer. Chucking bags, and towing metros doesn't teach you anything about flying a metro or how the dispatch side works or much useful at all. It's a way to thin the herd and get cheap labour.

[digits_]

It's extremely relevant what happens in ground operations at an airline. If the aircraft isn't towed, fueled, loaded and de-iced properly it's a huge issue. The captain will typically be flight planning while the FO handles the ground crew/ops in a 704 or small 705 operation. 703 one guy just does everything. None of that shit gets taught in flight schools at all and it's why rampies make way better FO's than instructors. They already know how to manage the rampies there because they know what the rampy is supposed to be doing. It's the most important part of their job.

That's what company training and line indoc is for. That doesn't require 2 years on the ramp.

[Eric Janson]

As a member of the oh-so-despised group that seems to be known as "Thumb-sucking Millenials", fresh out of the puppy mill and eager to enter the industry of sunny days and long naps between flight legs, I am curious: Do you folks see much value in a 8-18 month stint on the ramp before right seat? Seems to me that up to around 4 months of chucking bags and hauling hose would be very valuable in learning the ins and outs of the company and how the whole company machine operates, but beyond that you are simply sacrificing your hands, feet and cockpit management abilities for a chance to learn how to operate a pallet jack. Is it really in the companies best interest to depend on the pilot pool to staff their ground positions vs. hiring full time rampies who can train the pilots better and cycle them through these ramp postitions faster? Though I suppose few are troubled enough to stand out on an apron in -30 YZF unless someone is promissing them flight time in the future.

This is a selection process to see if you are worth training. Up to you to prove you're not a 'Thumb-sucking Millienial'!

There were no training bonds when I worked there - you work your way into the right seat.

How it works is not a secret - you know what you're getting yourself into. If it's not for you stay away - simple!

My CV stands out from that of most other people - I'm surprised at how well known Buffalo is around the World in aviation circles.

[Noo]

In a good way or a bad way?

[Eric Janson]

In a good way or a bad way?

Good way.

[square]

LOL. Of course you don't need to do two years on the ramp to learn how to fly. It's a free market and airlines are running for-profit businesses. If they don't put you in a flying position, it's because there is not demand for someone of your qualifications (which is not to say your abilities,) which by the way are pretty damn low if you have don't have any experience. Going to flight school for a year does not put you on the same level as a physician or attorney with a three year post-graduate degree. Sorry.

Is that really hard for anyone to understand?

[Eric Janson]

Yeah don't work there. You can work anywhere. Arctic Sunwest and Air Tindi are I think great companies with a really good safety culture and upgrade opportunities.

Joe is a goddamn lunatic. I used to work out of the NWT and my boss had been partners with him long before and said, one time Joe vapour locked a Baron in Lutselke/Snowdrift and couldnt get the second engine started so he just departed with the one. I used to fly to YK same time as he would arrive, managed to pass him due to upper winds on the way in, he taxied by giving the finger out the cockpit window to me and all my passengers and crew. Then went and balled out the controllers, who then had to give us S turns to make sure he won the next race. LOL.

Another time we went in there IFR, shot the ILS for, I think it's 34? down to minimums, had nothing and did a missed approach, he was right behind us VFR, controller asked him what he wanted to do traffic ahead did a missed approach, he went in for the other runway! No precision approach. Said he would go to the beacon and hook it in visual, made it in.

Another friend of mine used to work there, loved it! Going to all these ice strips you know with buckets of oil to get back, lol which is fine, til he got to be the senior copilot and had do to the sched, Hay River to YK in the AM then back in the PM, with Joe. He said anytime he would ask him a question about what he wanted to do going into YK or anything about the flight, Joe would switch on the pilot isolation (intercom off.)

The guy is not a good place to be around

Care to name your Boss who used to be partners with Joe?

There is no 'beacon' on the other side of the ILS in Yellowknife.

I have over 1000 hours as Joe's F/O - never experienced anything remotely like your 'stories'.

Ok, it was Terry Harrold. The beacon is on final for, what it is 34? He used it as a downwind reference for the other runway, 27? It's been a while since I was in YK so I don't know the runway numbers but my "stories" are true.

Thanks for the reply - I just saw it.

I know the Harrolds. Terry bought the Fort Smith operation from Joe. Don't believe they were ever partners.

The beacon story makes no sense to me whatsoever.

As for the rest - doesn't match my experiences.

[square]

Fair enough

[Spandau]

I'd like to see anyone get a Baron airborne on one engine - but I sure as hell wouldn't want to be in it.

[OneYonge]

Guys, if you get invited for a rampie-to-pilot job....do these northern operators usually commit to offer you the job over the phone,

or do you just drive up /fly-in, and take your chances without a signed contract in hand? How does it work?

I'm curious because it is kinda costly to go up there by either car or plane.