Pilot Shortage / Minimums /disconnect

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Coppertop401
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Re: Pilot Shortage / Minimums /disconnect

Post by Coppertop401 » Tue Aug 13, 2019 1:03 pm

To all:

What an interesting and insightful thread I've created. All of the POV's expressed either positive or negative on the state of the industry and the overall job market were very helpful.

I still think there are companies out there that insist on sticking to their minimums no matter what, and as a result the positions go unfilled for weeks and weeks. Perhaps the minimums are set by their insurance carrier, or simply by mere attitude of the hiring decision maker. Agreed that some are beginning to get it by lowering the minimums and giving new pilots a chance. I think this is overall healthy for the industry.

Great discussion and thanks to all who contributed.
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Coppertop401
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Re: Pilot Shortage / Minimums /disconnect

Post by Coppertop401 » Tue Aug 13, 2019 3:10 pm

Let me rephrase the last part of my remarks, I said:

"Agreed that some are beginning to get it by lowering the minimums and giving new pilots a chance. I think this is overall healthy for the industry"

A better statement would be:

"Agreed that some are beginning to get it by lowering the minimums and allowing new pilots a chance to be worked into the system. I think this is overall healthy for the industry.
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ehv8oar
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Re: Pilot Shortage / Minimums /disconnect

Post by ehv8oar » Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:14 am

I would much rather live in YQT than YYZ. Living poor in YYZ is depressing with the traffic, price of housing, entertainment, etc., but a313 is correct, I think most would. My coworker is finishing his IFR and is going to become an instructor because he refuses to move. He never wants to leave a big city. That may be the majority, but it's not how everyone feels.
Tell him to go live in Sioux Lookout for a few months, Thunder Bay will feel like a megacity after that!
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Re: Pilot Shortage / Minimums /disconnect

Post by FOD_Vacuum » Wed Aug 14, 2019 9:44 am

Try living in Sandy Lake, Pickle Lake or Fort Severn. Would make Southern ONT like Sioux Lookout look like a goldmine to live in :lol: all a matter of perspective.
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bring me the horizon
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Re: Pilot Shortage / Minimums /disconnect

Post by bring me the horizon » Fri Aug 16, 2019 10:15 pm

Someone should tell OP that Carson just upgraded a 600 hr FO on the metro. And the race to the bottom draws near.
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Coppertop401
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Re: Pilot Shortage / Minimums /disconnect

Post by Coppertop401 » Sat Aug 17, 2019 10:36 am

Ahhhh.....some good news.
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Re: Pilot Shortage / Minimums /disconnect

Post by C-GGGQ » Sat Aug 17, 2019 11:37 am

Wait... 600hr on type? Or total?
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ehv8oar
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Re: Pilot Shortage / Minimums /disconnect

Post by ehv8oar » Sun Aug 18, 2019 5:54 am

Try living in Sandy Lake, Pickle Lake or Fort Severn. Would make Southern ONT like Sioux Lookout look like a goldmine to live in :lol: all a matter of perspective
.

Ha yeah, spent a couple of weeks in Pickle and good point.
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Re: Pilot Shortage / Minimums /disconnect

Post by Blackdog0301 » Sun Aug 18, 2019 8:07 am

bring me the horizon wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 10:15 pm
Someone should tell OP that Carson just upgraded a 600 hr FO on the metro. And the race to the bottom draws near.
If that’s total time, that’s just outright dangerous.
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Re: Pilot Shortage / Minimums /disconnect

Post by TT1900 » Sun Aug 18, 2019 10:00 am

Blackdog0301 wrote:
Sun Aug 18, 2019 8:07 am
bring me the horizon wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 10:15 pm
Someone should tell OP that Carson just upgraded a 600 hr FO on the metro. And the race to the bottom draws near.
If that’s total time, that’s just outright dangerous.
Hardly. It depends entirely on the competence of the individual. I’ve flown with some 200hr pilots where I’d put my family onboard without hesitation and some 2000hr pilots where I just shake my head. Hours are great, but talent and good training are king.
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Re: Pilot Shortage / Minimums /disconnect

Post by Blackdog0301 » Sun Aug 18, 2019 10:17 am

I disagree. No 600 hour pilot should be left seat in a multi engined high performance turboprop. I'm willing to bet that if this is the case that they are splitting the duties with a more qualified captain for a couple hundred hours before being cut loose.
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Re: Pilot Shortage / Minimums /disconnect

Post by daedalusx » Sun Aug 18, 2019 3:14 pm

The ol' metro is a lot of airplane for a 600hr wonder, especially in winter. Carson had a low experienced Capt in a green on green situation do a runway excursion in Regina on a "PMA" ILS couple of years ago (I believed they touched down something like 8000' long). As far as I'm concerned, Kingair or PC12 are much more forgiving for less experienced crews.

That being said, I'd still trust more the 1500 hr ATPL holding metro left seater than the 1500 hr Jazz cadet/flight instructor who bought their ATPLs driving in circles around YYC.

[edit] Actually it was 7900' long
http://avherald.com/h?article=46e77db2
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Re: Pilot Shortage / Minimums /disconnect

Post by JohnnyHotRocks » Mon Aug 19, 2019 7:01 pm

How did we ever win WW2 with all those 200 hr kids flying fighters and bombers?
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Re: Pilot Shortage / Minimums /disconnect

Post by goingnowherefast » Mon Aug 19, 2019 7:07 pm

A very targeted training program, high accident/fatality rate, and just enough of a better training than the enemy.
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Re: Pilot Shortage / Minimums /disconnect

Post by EPR » Tue Aug 20, 2019 1:59 pm

JohnnyHotRocks wrote:
Mon Aug 19, 2019 7:01 pm
How did we ever win WW2 with all those 200 hr kids flying fighters and bombers?
...Well, that was a much...ahem.. "hardier generation".. to say the least!

My observation in regards to smaller companies competing for Pilots with the Regionals is that about the only thing that remote 703/704 operators have done to entice Pilots to their operation is to offer "rotations" to and from anywhere in Canada and paying out "retention" bonuses. I think this is a definite sign of the beginning of these operators realizing that the "Pilot market" has changed. (Prior to now, I think Borek was the only operator that ever offered rotations).
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Re: Pilot Shortage / Minimums /disconnect

Post by C.W.E. » Tue Aug 20, 2019 2:31 pm

My first flying job in aviation was aerial application and I got that job with just over 200 hours, I managed to survive it with no incidents.
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Re: Pilot Shortage / Minimums /disconnect

Post by goingnowherefast » Tue Aug 20, 2019 3:31 pm

If <insert regional airline> had a cadet program where, after 250hrs you have a Q400 type rating, I bet the quality of candidates would be better. Progress could be as follows:
172, for PPL and IFR trainer. Total 100hrs
172 for CPL training. Total 50 hours
Seminole for multi and M-IFR, 50hrs total
King Air C90 for turbine and pressurized flight, 50hrs total
Q400 sim for type rating, another 50 hours.

CPL training could also include working with a dispatch system, using an MEL, LOFT style exercises, actual IFR flight. Then continue similar exercises towards the end of the Seminole and King Air

Funny, it's similar to the military, but they use Grobs and the Harvard II instead, then the King Air.
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Re: Pilot Shortage / Minimums /disconnect

Post by shimmydampner » Tue Aug 20, 2019 3:46 pm

JohnnyHotRocks wrote:
Mon Aug 19, 2019 7:01 pm
How did we ever win WW2 with all those 200 hr kids flying fighters and bombers?
Great question :roll:
https://www.realclearhistory.com/articl ... i_412.html
Over the course of the war 200,000 trainees flunked out or died in training accidents.
....
The U.S. lost 65,164 planes during the war, but only 22,948 in combat. There were 21,583 lost due to accidents in the U.S., and another 20,633 lost in accidents overseas.
And that's just the US.
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Re: Pilot Shortage / Minimums /disconnect

Post by lownslow » Wed Aug 21, 2019 4:28 am

JohnnyHotRocks wrote:
Mon Aug 19, 2019 7:01 pm
How did we ever win WW2 with all those 200 hr kids flying fighters and bombers?
The other guys used a 190 hour ‘integrated program.’
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Re: Pilot Shortage / Minimums /disconnect

Post by JohnnyHotRocks » Wed Aug 21, 2019 4:52 am

goingnowherefast wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 3:31 pm
If <insert regional airline> had a cadet program where, after 250hrs you have a Q400 type rating, I bet the quality of candidates would be better. Progress could be as follows:
172, for PPL and IFR trainer. Total 100hrs
172 for CPL training. Total 50 hours
Seminole for multi and M-IFR, 50hrs total
King Air C90 for turbine and pressurized flight, 50hrs total
Q400 sim for type rating, another 50 hours.

CPL training could also include working with a dispatch system, using an MEL, LOFT style exercises, actual IFR flight. Then continue similar exercises towards the end of the Seminole and King Air

Funny, it's similar to the military, but they use Grobs and the Harvard II instead, then the King Air.
And after the cadet training, they would have a 25year $1,000,000 bond....this is Canada you know
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Re: Pilot Shortage / Minimums /disconnect

Post by 7dirty7 » Wed Aug 21, 2019 10:33 pm

daedalusx wrote:
Sun Aug 18, 2019 3:14 pm
The ol' metro is a lot of airplane for a 600hr wonder, especially in winter. Carson had a low experienced Capt in a green on green situation do a runway excursion in Regina on a "PMA" ILS couple of years ago (I believed they touched down something like 8000' long). As far as I'm concerned, Kingair or PC12 are much more forgiving for less experienced crews.

That being said, I'd still trust more the 1500 hr ATPL holding metro left seater than the 1500 hr Jazz cadet/flight instructor who bought their ATPLs driving in circles around YYC.

[edit] Actually it was 7900' long
http://avherald.com/h?article=46e77db2
They touched down halfway down the 7900 runway, the full length was 7900 feet. Maybe it's time to read things 3 times before posting fake news....trump.....
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Re: Pilot Shortage / Minimums /disconnect

Post by iflyforpie » Fri Aug 23, 2019 11:06 am

Coppertop401 wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 1:03 pm
I still think there are companies out there that insist on sticking to their minimums no matter what, and as a result the positions go unfilled for weeks and weeks.
Who says these positions are going unfilled?

Lots of it is a high rate of attrition and creating a pool of suitable candidates. It’s not getting zero resumes from qualified people and then putting the ad up again hoping to get someone qualified.
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Geez did I say that....? Or just think it....?

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Re: Pilot Shortage / Minimums /disconnect

Post by co-joe » Tue Sep 10, 2019 3:18 pm

Coppertop401 wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 1:03 pm
To all:

What an interesting and insightful thread I've created. All of the POV's expressed either positive or negative on the state of the industry and the overall job market were very helpful.

I still think there are companies out there that insist on sticking to their minimums no matter what, and as a result the positions go unfilled for weeks and weeks. Perhaps the minimums are set by their insurance carrier, or simply by mere attitude of the hiring decision maker. Agreed that some are beginning to get it by lowering the minimums and giving new pilots a chance. I think this is overall healthy for the industry.

Great discussion and thanks to all who contributed.
I think this industry has been an employer's market for so long that nobody knows what to do. My last company has had adds out for captains for over a year now without a single qualified applicant, yet their pay scale was written 15 years ago and they still refuse to look at it. Their only response has been to just lean on the current employees harder, work them more, and generally treat them worse, which has caused more people to leave.

As for low time pilots, Contrails forces them to provide good training or they'd certainly cheap out on that too. As a result, 200 hour FO's go to Sim in the states, get a really good training course, and then get a 100 hour line indoc. Even then they don't meet contrail so they fly the line more part time till they have the time on type requirements. For me flying with them, I never had any problems with their skills.

The problem is that outside of the oil patch, and the government funded medevac programs, companies are still doing shitty training. A low time or even just inexperienced FO is as useless as the training you are willing to give them. And there's no level D sim course for scud running in a Navajo, caravan, 206, etc.

The only difference I found between 200 hour FOs, and those with 1500 hours, is the 1500 hour ones, whine more about not being a captain yet. :lol:
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Re: Pilot Shortage / Minimums /disconnect

Post by Vsquared » Wed Sep 11, 2019 5:35 pm

Any insight into which companies are offering rotations to low hour FO's?
EPR wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 1:59 pm
JohnnyHotRocks wrote:
Mon Aug 19, 2019 7:01 pm
How did we ever win WW2 with all those 200 hr kids flying fighters and bombers?
...Well, that was a much...ahem.. "hardier generation".. to say the least!

My observation in regards to smaller companies competing for Pilots with the Regionals is that about the only thing that remote 703/704 operators have done to entice Pilots to their operation is to offer "rotations" to and from anywhere in Canada and paying out "retention" bonuses. I think this is a definite sign of the beginning of these operators realizing that the "Pilot market" has changed. (Prior to now, I think Borek was the only operator that ever offered rotations).
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