Metroliner

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skybluetrek
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Re: Metroliner

Post by skybluetrek » Tue Jan 14, 2020 3:41 pm

altiplano wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 9:52 am
Also to add, it doesn't matter what we debate, the fact is that those are the things the airlines are looking for... and jet or 705 experience.

Right or wrong, PC12 time ranks slightly higher than Cessna 172 time, maybe in par with the C208 guy, and certainly lower than a Turbo-Beaver on floats... At least that guy has some good stories...
I agree. There's more than the Total Time box.
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shimmydampner
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Re: Metroliner

Post by shimmydampner » Tue Jan 14, 2020 9:31 pm

digits_ wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 9:47 am
]Are you honestly claiming that low time pilots need *more* automation experience? Their manual flying skills have barely been developed yet manually flying a metro doesn’t benefit them as much as operating an autopilot?

i admit I am surprised...
I wouldn't say I'm claiming that, no. I am however, saying that I don't think that the difference in flying skills learned from one plane to the other will be that much different by the time that person quickly moves on to whatever is next in their career. It's likely however, that that next thing will be fully automated. So why not get proficient at that? Again, if developing manual flying skills were the true priority, there are better avenues for that. Really at the end of the day, take whichever job interests you more and is better for your personal life; that's the only difference that really matters. Either way, Jazz will probably take you and AC probably won't.
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skybluetrek
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Re: Metroliner

Post by skybluetrek » Wed Jan 15, 2020 9:02 am

shimmydampner wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 9:37 am
skybluetrek wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 4:47 pm
digits_ wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 4:04 pm
The real question is: do you have a choice?
PC12
I'll be the contrarian here and say Pc12. I don't think anyone really cares very much how much right seat multi turbine vs right seat single turbine time you have. However, they might be interested to see that you have some experience dealing with automation at least at the level that the PC12 has. When I train low time pilots it seems to be that dealing with the automation effectively and efficiently is the single biggest issue they have as it affects everything else they're trying to learn.
I'm sure the Metro is "harder" to fly than the 12, but I doubt very much it will be the limiting factor in your learning/progress. And let's be honest, if you were really interested in flying the trickiest thing possible to improve your skills, there are far trickier machines to fly and far more difficult types of flying than either of these options.
Also, it's been at least a month since the last single vs multi debate so in really hoping we can hear the same arguments again ad nauseum.
:wink:
I see your point, but I take that would apply to an NG with the Apex, not the case here. The debate would be to have the autopilot automation or not.

Also to add, I understand there are a few(don't know how many) Metroliners with a G950 STC upgrade. I guess that would mean the best of both worlds then.
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rigpiggy
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Re: Metroliner

Post by rigpiggy » Wed Jan 15, 2020 9:09 am

Texas Tampon
San Antonio Sewer Pipe
The Lawn Dart
Turbo Dildo
Etc.......
That said the only thing that could keep up with it under 10k was the F28
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rigpiggy
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Re: Metroliner

Post by rigpiggy » Wed Jan 15, 2020 9:16 am

shimmydampner wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 9:31 pm
digits_ wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 9:47 am
]Are you honestly claiming that low time pilots need *more* automation experience? Their manual flying skills have barely been developed yet manually flying a metro doesn’t benefit them as much as operating an autopilot?

i admit I am surprised...
I wouldn't say I'm claiming that, no. I am however, saying that I don't think that the difference in flying skills learned from one plane to the other will be that much different by the time that person quickly moves on to whatever is next in their career. It's likely however, that that next thing will be fully automated. So why not get proficient at that? Again, if developing manual flying skills were the true priority, there are better avenues for that.
The first 1000 hrs should be almost all hand flying, you cement the skills that will hopefully keep you alive the rest of your career. You have to get proficient to star, a metro having pushrod controls with a significant dead band you have to develop your scan, and hands/feet. Not a great beginner s plane, but if you can fly it, you can fly anything
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shimmydampner
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Re: Metroliner

Post by shimmydampner » Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:50 am

Admittedly I know nothing about metros but hyperbole aside, I agree with your point. However, the reality today does not really reflect that. These days by 1000 hours or sooner, pilots are going into highly automated heavy 705 turboprops or even jets going from 10000 foot runway to a precision approach terminating at another 10000 foot runway. It's not exactly difficult hands and feet stuff. Certainly not to the degree that the difference between 1000 hours in the right seat of a metro vs the same in a 12 is of any consequence. I'm not suggesting it's ideal. I'm just suggesting it is what it is.
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digits_
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Re: Metroliner

Post by digits_ » Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:55 am

I have not encountered a single operator that would prefer PC12 time over metro time (with the exception of PC12 operators hiring PC12 rated pilots). This is not a hyperbole.

Sure, some don't mind or don't care that you flew a PC12 instead of a metro, but they don't prefer it or value it higher.
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shimmydampner
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Re: Metroliner

Post by shimmydampner » Wed Jan 15, 2020 11:07 am

Great. I never said they did. This is exactly my point. I don't think they care much one way or another.
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altiplano
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Re: Metroliner

Post by altiplano » Wed Jan 15, 2020 11:17 am

I think flying skills are more valuable than autopilot operation skills.

I haven't met many that couldn't push a button, but I'd rather someone that needs help with what button to push than someone that needs help flying the aircraft.
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shimmydampner
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Re: Metroliner

Post by shimmydampner » Wed Jan 15, 2020 12:58 pm

Oh good, we are in agreement.
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rigpiggy
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Re: Metroliner

Post by rigpiggy » Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:47 pm

The guy at air france could fly an autopilot. Don't be that guy
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shimmydampner
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Re: Metroliner

Post by shimmydampner » Thu Jan 16, 2020 8:04 am

Absolutely don't be Air France guy! That would be fatally embarrassing.
Also don't be AVAir 3378 guy. That guy could hand fly a Metro, right up until he crashed one to death.
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iflyforpie
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Re: Metroliner

Post by iflyforpie » Thu Jan 16, 2020 9:37 am

altiplano wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 9:52 am
Also to add, it doesn't matter what we debate, the fact is that those are the things the airlines are looking for... and jet or 705 experience.

Right or wrong, PC12 time ranks slightly higher than Cessna 172 time, maybe in par with the C208 guy, and certainly lower than a Turbo-Beaver on floats... At least that guy has some good stories...
Nobody cares about what stories a pilot has when they are hired. Stories are for you and the first day of a pairing with a new captain who’s actually interested. That’s about it.

I also don’t value hands and feet over good decision making. There’s still a memorial plaque on the wall at the place I work from an ex bush pilot not exercising good CRM or decision making and getting into a place where their hands and feet were no longer sufficient.

A PC-12 is a high performance turboprop that gets you into flight levels and icing, flies at night and in almost all weather, goes between areas of vastly different weather and geography in a matter of hours, and will burn through a terminal area as fast as any jet.

The Turbo Beaver guy is going to have his hair on fire his first day even in a PC-12. And flying a clunky old bush plane at 100 knots where you can approach at any speed, any profile, and land anywhere on a miles long and wide runway probably isn’t going to help as much as you think. A bad day on the West Coast putting around at 80 knots with flaps out still isn’t seeing nothing but the ODALS in VV001 1/4SM FZFG at 120 knots or circling at 700 and 2 at night... followed by a missed approach.

The only real difference between a PC-12 and any other turboprop is one engine. And these days engine shut downs are so rare that multi time hardly matters anymore. Which is why PC-12 time is still valued. Not at much as Metro or King Air time, about the same as Navajo time, way above almost anything with floats underneath.
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Geez did I say that....? Or just think it....?

altiplano
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Re: Metroliner

Post by altiplano » Thu Jan 16, 2020 1:42 pm

Lighten up, Francis.
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Duukar
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Re: Metroliner

Post by Duukar » Thu Jan 16, 2020 2:17 pm

I have a friend who went directly from right seat on a PC12 to right seat on an Embraer 170 to left seat on the Embraer 170 to Right seat on an Embraer 190 to left seat on an Embraer 190. He had literally 25 hours of multi time and moved to the right seat of the E170 in 2013. In fact I know several pilots who moved directly from the right seat on the PC12 to some nice metal. All pilots from Ornge.

People claim to know the route to success. The reality is there are many paths.

You need Multi Turbine >12500 time. You need glass experience. You need experience with automation. Until you don't.

You WILL need PIC time.

I have known people who have flown the metro and died, one co-worker and one friend of a friend. I have known people who have flown the metro and the stories they tell prevent me from ever boarding one again(Entire legs flown with the stall horn activated - Entire legs flown with the gear down). I've worked at a company where 3 Metros went off the runway in one year. It's an old banged up played out aircraft. I wouldn't touch one with a ten foot pole.

All that being said, can you fly one safely? Absolutely. Here is where my point is.

It all depends on the company you are flying for!

You can go fly a PC12 for a company like Ornge and you will have a great career. Most of the guys I worked with back in 2010 are still there. The ones who have left are flying with AC and Transat and Porter and Skyregional and Westjet and on and on. Glass time with automation is valuable.

Ornge sends you to SIM. Ornge trains you to a very high standard. Ornge has experienced pilots who act as mentors and help you grow. Above all Ornge has an established safety first culture. Not to mention they actually pay you a living wage.

Pick a company that will train you properly. Any time you spend in the SIM will pay off in spades. Pick a company that will promote you. Pick a company with room to move up to a larger or more complex aircraft. Pick a company where you get paid reasonably. Above all pick a company with a good reputation for safety and treatment of employees.

By the time you have 2000 hours the airlines will be looking at you. Just don't sell you soul to get those hours. When I was growing up as a pilot guys would do anything for an opportunity. It's just not that way anymore. Make a smart choice, stay safe, and pick a company you can spend the next 2-4 years at getting your hours.
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skybluetrek
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Re: Metroliner

Post by skybluetrek » Thu Jan 16, 2020 3:58 pm

Duukar wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 2:17 pm
I have a friend who went directly from right seat on a PC12 to right seat on an Embraer 170 to left seat on the Embraer 170 to Right seat on an Embraer 190 to left seat on an Embraer 190. He had literally 25 hours of multi time and moved to the right seat of the E170 in 2013. In fact I know several pilots who moved directly from the right seat on the PC12 to some nice metal. All pilots from Ornge.

People claim to know the route to success. The reality is there are many paths.

You need Multi Turbine >12500 time. You need glass experience. You need experience with automation. Until you don't.

You WILL need PIC time.

I have known people who have flown the metro and died, one co-worker and one friend of a friend. I have known people who have flown the metro and the stories they tell prevent me from ever boarding one again(Entire legs flown with the stall horn activated - Entire legs flown with the gear down). I've worked at a company where 3 Metros went off the runway in one year. It's an old banged up played out aircraft. I wouldn't touch one with a ten foot pole.

All that being said, can you fly one safely? Absolutely. Here is where my point is.

It all depends on the company you are flying for!

You can go fly a PC12 for a company like Ornge and you will have a great career. Most of the guys I worked with back in 2010 are still there. The ones who have left are flying with AC and Transat and Porter and Skyregional and Westjet and on and on. Glass time with automation is valuable.

Ornge sends you to SIM. Ornge trains you to a very high standard. Ornge has experienced pilots who act as mentors and help you grow. Above all Ornge has an established safety first culture. Not to mention they actually pay you a living wage.

Pick a company that will train you properly. Any time you spend in the SIM will pay off in spades. Pick a company that will promote you. Pick a company with room to move up to a larger or more complex aircraft. Pick a company where you get paid reasonably. Above all pick a company with a good reputation for safety and treatment of employees.

By the time you have 2000 hours the airlines will be looking at you. Just don't sell you soul to get those hours. When I was growing up as a pilot guys would do anything for an opportunity. It's just not that way anymore. Make a smart choice, stay safe, and pick a company you can spend the next 2-4 years at getting your hours.
Good post. I wish it was Ornge. Any operators not flying the PC12 safely?
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