First job, Low hour group 1 questions

[Ahmaxpower]

Hi All,
So if been trying to read as much as I can about that first job and asking as many pilots at my local club about jobs for a fresh CPL Group 1 holder. I'm 24, from southern Ontario and pretty much understand relocation is a must. I'm trying to centre my job search on city or a higher populated town as my wife works in the spa industry. My question is about Alberta/Saskatchewan/Winnipeg operators (yes that's pretty vague). I've done some reading and wondering if Sunwest hires entry level pilots (ramp) and the progression one can roughly expect. I had a friend who was an AME there and said it was a really nice company.
Also I have read up on perimeter and also have a friend working there currently. I have read the forum about working life at perimeter and am aware of what can roughly be expected.
I'm looking for some words of wisdom anyone can chime in with about operators with small twins similar to Sunwest/perimeter and anything on them as well. I'm frequently on pilotcareercenter and the forum here trying to get informed. Thank you !

My Goal is to get into the corporate flying, that's why sunwest appeals to me now.

[iflyforpie]

Why a city?

I know that the average southern Ontarian thinks that it is all log cabins and grizzly bears north of Lake Simcoe..... where the women dress in flannel shirts, have beards, chew tobacco, and kill what's for dinner.... but that isn't the case.

In my little town of 4000... there are at least THREE spas.... Women love to be pampered wherever they are... and if there isn't a spa in town your wife could probably open one up and make a killing.

[Ahmaxpower]

I totally agree! where ever there are women they want to be pampered. I am also from a small town with 4400 people and with the spas in our region as there is a few, the business isn't quite there. That may not be true for all smaller towns, but where more people are located, there is often more business for her as she has learned. I am not at all against smaller towns which will offer flying positions sooner than the larger operators in Calgary, Saskatoon etc. But a place like pickle lake might not have as much opportunity for my wife, as compared to red deer or Calgary etc.

I'm not exclusively searching the larger cities, it’s just where I am starting my search first. I understand I can probably help my career more by looking everywhere and anywhere for that first job. Just trying to make it a little easier on the wife if she can work in her field (which will probably no doubt in some way affect my career)

[Oxi]

Plenty more thinking needs to be done on your part. What does your wife do? Have you spoken to her about the possibilities of small town work vs large city living? Its about finding a balance and working out the pros and cons for both you and your wife and eventually the family.

[cdnpilot77]

In my little town of 4000... there are at least THREE spas.... Women love to be pampered wherever they are... and if there isn't a spa in town your wife could probably open one up and make a killing.

Your town does have an abnormally high ratio of high income earners living at least part time in the neighbourhood though. I wouldn't say that is a typical canadian town.

I agree women love to be pampered, but how many spas are in Sioux lookout or wawa or Dryden? Places that are more likely to be a first job setting than your town.

[Ahmaxpower]

I have talked to her about the potential benefits that some smaller operators have with getting pilots stick time sooner than some of their larger ones where as you could spend more time on the ramp. She understands that, I don't think she's overly thrilled about possibilities of a remote town. She's still getting used to the idea of having to move away from her family, something that will be harder for her to deal with then myself I feel. I have told myself for her sake that I’ll try and look for employment in a larger populated town for some benefit for her career.

And also she is aware if I only get opportunities in remote locations that eventually that job pays off with stick time which then allows us to relocate to other places and so on...

I'm asking what these operators like Sunwest, perimeter, west wind etc are like for that entry level. Can expect a year or two on the ground, and then gradually get air time and so on. Anyone have experience with the operators in larger cities and towns as their entry job what they experienced and things they could pass on to the many people that are in a similar position.

And we can even expand this a little farther with anyone else relocating with a young family, how your spouse adapted and took to the lifestyle of being with a pilot. All my friends in the industry are single and can’t relate. I'm all too aware of some of the horror stories of marriages and divorces in aviation industry, but really that's not something that I'm concerned about

[Diadem]

I think you and your wife really need to sit down and prioritize whose career goals are more important. I put my SO ahead of my career, which probably suffered because of it, but my personal life is more important to me than my professional one; I made the choice only to pursue jobs in specific areas because of the limitations in my SO's job, and I don't regret it at all. Companies like Perimeter and Sunwest tend to be better to work for overall, but they also tend to take longer to get flying. If you are willing to make the sacrifice in spending more time working the ramp because it's better for your wife, so be it, but if her job is pretty much going to be the same no matter where you are I would suggest you try to find somewhere more remote where you'll get flying faster. It will probably be harder than working for a larger operator in a bigger city, but you'll probably get hours so much faster that you'll be able to get a flying job with one of those larger operators around the same time you'd be moving up from the ramp if you started your career there. Regardless, you need to have a serious discussion with your wife about who is going to be making the sacrifice and what your long-term plans are.

[fish4life]

I doubt you will find anyone who went to perimeter and moved on after that has ever said they regret working there I think that's a good case for it. This will be even more pronounced a couple years after leaving a lot of people don't realize how good they have / had it until they go somewhere else.

[flyinhigh]

Forget Perimeter, they have been axing jobs for months now. Not sure of the numbers but I do know about 15-20 rampies were recently layed off.

As for not being concerned about your wife leaving you, give your head a shake. Ask any pilot on here that dragged there ex's across country numerous times thinking that they would suck it up and never leave where they are at now. Personal life should always take priority over ANY job.

Do you wanna go to work and be pissed off because she left, or would you rather have a bad day and have her there to listen to you vent and tell you all will be alright while getting you a cold beer.

A job is a job, we work to live. Not live to work.

I gave up 5 yrs in the airline for my family 3 years ago, to this day, best decision I have ever made..

Good luck

[Ahmaxpower]

Thanks for the insight. Can anyone else say what's going on at perimeter current time. I've read so many people saying they are hiring and then people say they are firing...

Does anyone have an information about Sunwest. Life there, conditions, people, and so on. I cant seem to find some useful information to go off of. I'm just trying to do some research and this is a great place to ask all you wonderful people who are in the loop. Feel free to pm me as well.

Cheers everyone!

[cdnpilot77]

Forget Perimeter, they have been axing jobs for months now. Not sure of the numbers but I do know about 15-20 rampies were recently layed off.

As for not being concerned about your wife leaving you, give your head a shake. Ask any pilot on here that dragged there ex's across country numerous times thinking that they would suck it up and never leave where they are at now. Personal life should always take priority over ANY job.

Do you wanna go to work and be pissed off because she left, or would you rather have a bad day and have her there to listen to you vent and tell you all will be alright while getting you a cold beer.

A job is a job, we work to live. Not live to work.

I gave up 5 yrs in the airline for my family 3 years ago, to this day, best decision I have ever made..

Good luck

Sounds like some sour grapes....I personally know of a couple people just hired on the ramp very recently at Perimeter, so your comment about mass layoffs is very curious and exaggerated to say the least. I have heard of a few being let go because they weren't productive or couldn't pass the training, but nothing about mass layoffs.

Perhaps you were in the wrong segment of the industry for your lifestyle needs. It's hard to paint everyone's significant other with the same brush, no? Some are much more willing to support the insane beginnings for the eventual payoff. But some just can't hack their spouse being away for 3 days let alone 3 months (or more) at a time, while others look forward to a few days to themselves.

I got into light turbo-props and now light jets and it's been the very best thing that could have happened to myself and my family and I have zero intention of changing my direction towards the airlines. Oh and by the way, I am on wife # one who watched me "piss away" $20k to finish my CPL-MIFR and float rating, go away for 3 full summers and then again for 8months while she was pregnant with twins. We now have a third who is 8 months old and she is no closer to the door than she was 7 years ago when we got married. Perspective is very important and has paid off in a big way!

[PROC_HDG]

flyinhigh is not incorrect. They have gone to a more 'labour-efficient' 7-on-7-off schedule for most ground employees recently and as such have laid a bunch of them off, many of them pilots waiting for a flying gig. No sour grapes, just the facts. Movement has slowed a lot there.

Not trying to dissuade you from going; if you can get a job there it is a good place to start.

PROC_HDG

[andy.air]

Wait time at Sunwest is around 2-3 years I think. Mostly based on seniority and who has their training done. They put you in a Navajo doing bag runs, which is a good transition to go into from flying a light single, and the time you build is good from what I hear. Ramp work is okay from what I hear, and they have a beautiful looking building. Pay on the ground is on the low end compared to other pay grades in the company, but that's typical. I know a few people who work there, some on the ground, and a few pilots. I hear good things. Some people even get put on a Metro. North Cariboo Air in Calgary is another company I've seen some people go through from the ramp. About the same wait times. They tend to put people into King Airs. Bit of a learning curve, but great experience. Central Mountain Air has a low-time pilot program (they are BC operator, but they do have bases in larger cities). Wait time 3+ years I think if coming up from the ramp. I hear mixed things about them, but I've also known some successful pilots who have flown with them too. They fly a 1900, but I believe you have to do a sim eval after your 3 years to even qualify.

Not much for green fields in Saskatchewan. There's Transwest Air (Saskatoon and Prince Albert) which does promote pilots from the ramp, with 1-2 year wait times, but work conditions and pay is an issue. No seniority list, so managers have to like if you get to fly at all. Not sure if West Wind has a program for low-timers, but they would be a decent company to work for if they do. Courtesy Air in Buffalo Narrows used to be a great company to get flying as soon as possible with minimum wait times, but they lost a major contract recently and had a huge change in flight ops management, so things are likely different there now. It's also in the bush.

Don't know much about Manitoba operators personally.

Ever think about instructing? Most people who go these routes can enjoy the bigger cities, and they get to log time while they wait for something better. It kind of defeats the purpose of a group 1 instrument rating for a few years, but it does allow you to skip the ramp if you spend some time in it. Schedules can suck, but it's another option. If a job does suddenly pop up that grants you a PPC, your instrument rating will get renewed. If you work the ramp for anything greater than a year, there is an increasing chance that you would have to renew your instrument rating at some point before you get flying anyways.

Another option is to look at dropzones for skydivers.

[Ahmaxpower]

Wait time at Sunwest is around 2-3 years I think. Mostly based on seniority and who has their training done. They put you in a Navajo doing bag runs, which is a good transition to go into from flying a light single, and the time you build is good from what I hear. Ramp work is okay from what I hear, and they have a beautiful looking building. Pay on the ground is on the low end compared to other pay grades in the company, but that's typical. I know a few people who work there, some on the ground, and a few pilots. I hear good things. Some people even get put on a Metro. North Cariboo Air in Calgary is another company I've seen some people go through from the ramp. About the same wait times. They tend to put people into King Airs. Bit of a learning curve, but great experience. Central Mountain Air has a low-time pilot program (they are BC operator, but they do have bases in larger cities). Wait time 3+ years I think if coming up from the ramp. I hear mixed things about them, but I've also known some successful pilots who have flown with them too. They fly a 1900, but I believe you have to do a sim eval after your 3 years to even qualify.

Not much for green fields in Saskatchewan. There's Transwest Air (Saskatoon and Prince Albert) which does promote pilots from the ramp, with 1-2 year wait times, but work conditions and pay is an issue. No seniority list, so managers have to like if you get to fly at all. Not sure if West Wind has a program for low-timers, but they would be a decent company to work for if they do. Courtesy Air in Buffalo Narrows used to be a great company to get flying as soon as possible with minimum wait times, but they lost a major contract recently and had a huge change in flight ops management, so things are likely different there now. It's also in the bush.

Don't know much about Manitoba operators personally.

Ever think about instructing? Most people who go these routes can enjoy the bigger cities, and they get to log time while they wait for something better. It kind of defeats the purpose of a group 1 instrument rating for a few years, but it does allow you to skip the ramp if you spend some time in it. Schedules can suck, but it's another option. If a job does suddenly pop up that grants you a PPC, your instrument rating will get renewed. If you work the ramp for anything greater than a year, there is an increasing chance that you would have to renew your instrument rating at some point before you get flying anyways.

Another option is to look at dropzones for skydivers.

Thanks for that. I have thought about instructing but I don't think I'm the type of person for that route. 2-3 years seems like a long time to be ramping it. I understand that's sometimes how long its going be but if other places are getting rampies in the seat in 1-2 years then id rather look elsewhere.

My wife and I have been doing more talking on the topic as we discuss it a often, and remote locations might not be as bad. I have showed her more of what you all have been saying and its helped her more understand the process. She's aware of what the career path of a pilot can be and from what I've been explaining to her. I also made her read the book "so you want to be a pilot,eh?" by James ball, which by the way I suggest to everyone new to aviation , or anyone interested in becoming a pilot. But any ways I think its safe to say I will be open to any offers that come my way. I am still very interested in perimeter and will be looking at them when it comes time to send out the resumes.

Is spring considered the "hiring season" for most operators?

Thanks again!!

[cdnpilot77]

I also made her read the book "so you want to be a pilot,eh?" by James ball, which by the way I suggest to everyone new to aviation , or anyone interested in becoming a pilot.

He is a poster on these boards so I'm sure he will thank you for the plug

When talking to the wife, make sure you are realistic with your goals and expectations. I know more than a few who have exaggerated to their significant others how quick their progression will be and when they will qualify for jobs etc. Their relationships falter because they don't even come close to meeting those pie in the sky projections.

A very good piece of advice I was given was, wherever you go, even if you intend on only staying for a year or 2, make sure it is a place you would be comfortable staying 2-3 times longer in case the music stops and the hiring cycle ends.

All the best to you and your wife...keep us posted!

[Spokes]

Why a city?

I know that the average southern Ontarian thinks that it is all log cabins and grizzly bears north of Lake Simcoe..... where the women dress in flannel shirts, have beards, chew tobacco, and kill what's for dinner.... .

So you've met my ex-wife

[fish4life]

One thing to consider as well is ramp times are like the stock market, while previous ramp wait times may be indicative of future ones there is no way to be sure. By trying to pick the company with the shortest wait times that might not be as stable its like investing in a risky stock while an established company with consistent flow through might be a bit longer wait it is more guaranteed. That said if the economy goes in the shitter with the price of oil being down it will make all ramp times skyrocket. I'd personally be weary of companies doing lots of oil patch related work right now.

[Ahmaxpower]

One thing to consider as well is ramp times are like the stock market, while previous ramp wait times may be indicative of future ones there is no way to be sure. By trying to pick the company with the shortest wait times that might not be as stable its like investing in a risky stock while an established company with consistent flow through might be a bit longer wait it is more guaranteed. That said if the economy goes in the shitter with the price of oil being down it will make all ramp times skyrocket. I'd personally be weary of companies doing lots of oil patch related work right now.

Very interesting, I never really look at it that way. Thanks

[Ahmaxpower]

A very good piece of advice I was given was, wherever you go, even if you intend on only staying for a year or 2, make sure it is a place you would be comfortable staying 2-3 times longer in case the music stops and the hiring cycle ends.

All the best to you and your wife...keep us posted!

This is good to know too, I will definitely consider that when it comes time to moving

[JBI]

I also made her read the book "so you want to be a pilot,eh?" by James ball, which by the way I suggest to everyone new to aviation , or anyone interested in becoming a pilot.

He is a poster on these boards so I'm sure he will thank you for the plug

Yes, Thanks for the plug!

Unfortunately right now I don't have my ear to the ground on best individual operators to look into for first jobs. There are always lots of places with Navajos etc. who will hire, but it often ends up being a "right place at the right time" situation. Generally, Perimeter in particular, and Winnipeg in general, tends to be a good spot with the right balance of opportunity and amenities, but if there have been layoffs recently, that could slow things down.

One other thing to consider is that in small towns, there's often non-aviation opportunities available to people with very little experience that would not be available in larger cities. If your wife has other things she's ever thought about doing, there's lots of cool experiences open to people if they are open to trying them.

While the opportunities would obviously vary based on the town/location that you're at, I know people who were offered opportunities to substitute teach, be a sessional professor at a college, be a radio announcer, work at other various service jobs or for the government, work as a civilian with the RCMP and even become an airline dispatcher.

Cheers and good luck