Encore - Not Worth It

[Canadianjetpilot]

"I have a hard time seeing Encore forcing you to work 24 days. I can see it being optional, and in lieu getting 4 additional days off in your consecutive month if you did end up accepting those additional days."

If you thought you were getting 4 days of OT you may have worked those as well.

"Or no... am I reading that you are forced to work 24 days simply because you haven't blocked 70 hours? That seems to go against policy, no?

It was a function of a number of things: maintenance issues, IROPS, crewing, deadheading, scheduling conflicts.

The pilots dug the company out from under a mountain of screw-ups to help out and to make a few more bucks but they had a 'misconception' of how their compensation was structured.

"Further, anyone I'm speaking with on the inside seems to believe that the hours will not roll back to 70 hours. And that it only seems to be a concern by people on the outside of the company."

Well if history is any indicator WJA pilots thought the cost of living adjustment would carry through after their 2009 agreement expired but guess what...they did not...because WJA had no contractual obligation to pay it they hung on to that coin. As it stands they have no obligation to the WJE pilots to extend the 80hr min.

"Reason being that 70 hours is under utilization of crew, 90 is over utilization of crew, and that 80 hours is the median for any regional airline. Is this true? Are you guys at Encore literally not concerned about the roll back to 70 hours? It affects pay by about 6000 dollars / year for F/O's and 10 000 / year for Captains."

Oh they are concerned alright. WRT the utilization you are absolutely right, it was terribly inefficient. Keep in mind WJ crew were not paid for DH

"Lastly, how much does the ESP/Profit Share bridge the Gap? I have spoken to Encore pilot's saying it's not uncommon for Captains T4 to be in the vicinity of 90k in the first year and F/O's around 50k/yr in the First Year. Is this true? "

ESP. For one they only offered 10% ESP to those people who were going to come to WJE at 80% industry comp to help build Encore. A pathetic gesture at best.

Secondly if you did do the full 10% and the company matched 10% you are now taxed on that total amount BUT are only bringing home 80% of that amount after tax or about $865 per pay-cheque or a whopping $11.77/HR ( whats min wage these days??)

So if I'm reading this correctly, pilot's helping the company out, assumed they were getting OT pay but ended up not getting OT Pay? I thought OT started at 90 hours. Wasn't this written somewhere? So unless you were going to hit 90 hours (or what ever the policy says) why would you expect OT even if helping out? One would think you'd know what you're getting yourself into if helping out and not hitting the OT credit requirements. I think it's standard anywhere I've worked where if you don't go above the credit requirements for OT, you don't get paid OT. Hence why when you fly underneath the guaranteed, you still get paid as if you were working the full guarantee. Am I missing something here CJP?

How did you do your math for ESP?

38.97/hr at 80 hrs = 37411.20 / yr. 20% total is $7482.24

7482.24+37411.20 = 44893.44 + What ever Profit Share Would be what's on your T4.

If it goes to 70 it's

32734.80 + 6546.96 = 39281.76 on T4 plus what ever profit share.

Or am I incorrect? Can you correct the math where I went wrong please.

I used a simple $35,000. Pilot donates $3500(10%) to ESP, company matches $3500. Total of $7000 goes to ESP and you cant touch it for a year. Total taxable pay is $38,500 (original 35,000+company's 3500). You are taxed on $38,500 but only have $31,500
(taxed as if it was $38,500) to bring home.

Profit share is only if you make a profit.

[Krimson]

What are guys typically getting in per diems per month?

[Canadianjetpilot]

What are guys typically getting in per diems per month?

$2.98/hr

[loopa]

I think you're incorrect as to how overtime works. If your contract says Max 20 days a month of flying and you fly 21 then you just worked on a day off and get overtime rate for 1 day. The other possibility is you work like a rented mule in 19 scheduled days and do 100hrs then you get 90 at regular pay and 10 at overtime rate. That's how it worked at every airline I've been at. If people worked past the 20 scheduled days then anything passed that should be paid at the overtime rate. Pretty straightforward but I don't know the details of the Encore terms of employment.

Thanks for the clarification. I was simply under the impression that over time was a function of credit time. So if you accepted to go outside your 20 days, but haven't flown enough credits to hit OT, they would just pay you as normal and it would be something you'd know prior to accepting the 21st day, etc.

I do agree with the latter however, that if you have worked for 20 days, and company needs you for 21st, that there would be some OT incentive in that regardless of credit hours.

[Krimson]

What are guys typically getting in per diems per month?

$2.98/hr

Monthly average?

[KK7]

Canadianjetpilot:

I didn't originally want to post here and join this ridiculous thread, but I finally got angry enough that I had to reply.

I take great offence to what you are putting forward. As an Encore pilot myself, your posts are highly disrespectful to me and my fellow pilots, contain numerous incorrect facts, and you not in any position to speak with any authority to what the actual situation is. You are not working at Encore, what do you really know of the working conditions here? I find it gravely disappointing that you have decided to slag your own company on a public forum rather than try to fix or improve what you perceive as problem through the appropriate channels.

As some may or may not know there was a verbal, quasi-agreement in play to improve work conditions at Encore, oft referred to as the 'Retention' program, but due to recent layoffs at other companies the pool at Encore has seen an upswing of qualified candidates. And so the rules of supply and demand have come into play. The conditions at Encore are not changing.

As far as I know, as an Encore pilot, there was never any agreement about a retention program. Yes there was talk, but no agreement was ever come to. Despite the doom and gloom that you put out there, you are pointing out that there are people who want to stay at Encore. But like you said, Encore management seems to have decided that since we are receiving highly experienced candidates we can accept our most experienced pilots at the top of the seniority to move onto the 737.

The temporary improvements will expire in June and likely will revert back seeing as there is no longer a need to 'encourage' people to stay/apply.

You are guessing at this, nothing more. The 80 hour min guarantee policy that expires in June is the second such policy and it was renewed last time despite having highly qualified candidates in the pool. Please do tell us what your source is that this will not be renewed, I would like to know. Besides, our average monthly credit is going up. I had 77 hours in March and 13 days off, and the published stats are pretty similar.

Still have no scheduling consistency. Still pay poorly. Still unable to maintain the promised 50% flow through. In fact flow might not even make the min 25% mark over the year.

Scheduling is in need of improvement, for sure. Currently bidding days off, and in March there was roughly a 97% success rate in pilots getting their requested days off. April is a bit lower for some, but still above 85%. Looking forward to the day we can bid on more than days off, but in the mean time most people seem pretty happy.

Bot able to make the 25% flow through for the year? It is guaranteed in our employment offers. Two 737 ground schools in May at 50% flow through, and no less than 25% for the classes for the rest of the year. Where do you get your incorrect information???

Nobody promised more than 25% at any point, the fact is that with the aggressive growth you can't loose that many people so quickly. Despite this we're doing 50% flow through in May. The goal is 100% flow through, and this is not just to make pilots happy. Keeping people at Encore for longer than required means Encore pays them increasing wages when they would rather keep the staff fresh at Encore and have people move up to WJA.

To top it off the Encore Executive is still resisting the Agreement process.

According to the WJPA, Agreement work in progress. This only started after the work on the WJA agreement.

If you have a Jazz interview/offer take it. Your life WILL be much better for it. If I was 25 again and deciding which way to go, the choice is absolutely clear because 15 years from now you will have a better life at AC

This is a personal choice for anybody. But you start at lower wages at Jazz, and you'll be stuck there for longer than you'll be at Encore before flowing to AC.

-More correctly they want you to THINK you will be happy when you get there.

I am happy here, and most of the people I come across are also very happy. Perhaps you should actually talk to the folks who work at Encore.

-Fact is, in their arrogance, WJA management, specifically Gregg and Ferio, knowingly dropped the WAWCON below industry in hopes the WESTJET name alone would draw crowds. That theory failed...at least until oil dropped and layoffs happened. When you're starving a dumpster doesn't seem so bad.

-They ARE dreaming of ways and they are actively facilitating as much. (i.e. deliberate stalling of agreement talks, a refusal to drop the failed scheduling software among others)

This is all a work in progress, and nothing is stalled as far as I know.

-You will be hard pressed to find a (non-management) pilot at WJA that supports what the WJE pilots are going through.

I appreciate that your fellow WJA pilots are rooting for us and want nothing but the best for us. I am thankful that your fellow pilots take a more professional approach at affecting change rather than posting inaccurate facts on a public forum.

-And, BTW, your seat is not guaranteed. The only guarantee is you don't have to do a second interview. A very distinct difference worth noting. That and you can be bypassed by a lower number if your performance at WJE is considered "sub-standard".

If you are OK with 10-15 years at WJE, then 15+ years to a left seat at WJA then maybe it's for you.

To the pilots presently at Encore I apologize for maligning your company but you were mislead though victimized may be more accurate.

Any one going there from this point should be eyes open. You'll have no one to blame but yourself.

Thank you for your apology, but you re apologizing for the wrong thing. You should be apologizing for the disrespect you are showing towards current Encore pilots by making assumptions on our happiness, quality of life, and working conditions and presenting it as fact without actually knowing much about it at all.

"I have a hard time seeing Encore forcing you to work 24 days. I can see it being optional, and in lieu getting 4 additional days off in your consecutive month if you did end up accepting those additional days."

If you thought you were getting 4 days of OT you may have worked those as well.

"Or no... am I reading that you are forced to work 24 days simply because you haven't blocked 70 hours? That seems to go against policy, no?

It was a function of a number of things: maintenance issues, IROPS, crewing, deadheading, scheduling conflicts.

The pilots dug the company out from under a mountain of screw-ups to help out and to make a few more bucks but they had a 'misconception' of how their compensation was structured.

I can't speak for the early days, but lets look at now. Max 20 days, get asked to work on a day off, you can refuse, or accept and receive OT.

"Further, anyone I'm speaking with on the inside seems to believe that the hours will not roll back to 70 hours. And that it only seems to be a concern by people on the outside of the company."

Well if history is any indicator WJA pilots thought the cost of living adjustment would carry through after their 2009 agreement expired but guess what...they did not...because WJA had no contractual obligation to pay it they hung on to that coin. As it stands they have no obligation to the WJE pilots to extend the 80hr min.

"Reason being that 70 hours is under utilization of crew, 90 is over utilization of crew, and that 80 hours is the median for any regional airline. Is this true? Are you guys at Encore literally not concerned about the roll back to 70 hours? It affects pay by about 6000 dollars / year for F/O's and 10 000 / year for Captains."

Oh they are concerned alright. WRT the utilization you are absolutely right, it was terribly inefficient. Keep in mind WJ crew were not paid for DH

I don't think it makes sense to underutilize any crew, and like I said earlier there has been no indication except for people outside the company that the min guarantee will be dropped. Hopefully and agreement will cement this figure.

"Lastly, how much does the ESP/Profit Share bridge the Gap? I have spoken to Encore pilot's saying it's not uncommon for Captains T4 to be in the vicinity of 90k in the first year and F/O's around 50k/yr in the First Year. Is this true? "

ESP. For one they only offered 10% ESP to those people who were going to come to WJE at 80% industry comp to help build Encore. A pathetic gesture at best.

Secondly if you did do the full 10% and the company matched 10% you are now taxed on that total amount BUT are only bringing home 80% of that amount after tax or about $865 per pay-cheque or a whopping $11.77/HR ( whats min wage these days??)

I think 20% ESP is on the wishlist, for sure. I don't know why one wouldn't put their 10% ESP and the matched portion into an RRSP, so that they can shelter it from tax. Keep in mind that the demographics of Encore are young pilots who do not own any homes due to their age and and being single, an RRSP can be used towards the downpayment of a home, without paying tax on it as long as you repay the RRSP over a certain amount of time, which is easily achievable with the ESP program.

$2.98/hr

Not a huge difference, but just to show that Canadianjetpilot does not have correct facts, I don't know where his info comes from, but per diem is $3.03/hr TAFB, and $0.0777 TAFB for dry cleaning. I think this matches the WJA policy.

To all, I would like to say that Encore is certainly not perfect. There are definitely improvements to be made, I am the first to admit. But I've been around and I think it's a great place to work. I'm happy, I live a comfortable life, provide for my family and put a roof over their heads that is better than most in Canada, all with these Encore wages. I think collectively we are all working to make improvements at Encore, and I have not seen a great deal of resistance so long as the improvements are realistic. I'm sorry for the folks who feel like everything in life is provided to them on a silver platter. It takes work to grow one's career, to grow a company, and to make improvements overall. I take great exception for the types of people who expect to get everything without the work.

I am proud to work at Encore, and I work to make the company better along with the lives of those I work with. I hope that Canadianjetpilot can come down from his ivory tower and actually talk to the people who are working at Encore instead of making assumptions and presenting incorrect facts.

[loopa]

Thank you very much KK7 for such a factual post.

[Canadianjetpilot]

KK7,

So we agree on many things it seems:

-It is all work in progress. Except that it didn’t/doesn’t have to be. They could have done it proper from the get go but chose not to.

-There was a ‘retention’ proposal (lets call it) that is no longer in play. The reasonable inference here is that it is no longer required…ergo they were going to make things better but now don’t have to.

-Scheduling is in need of improvement. Can only bid days off, no other attributes. How long are you willing to wait?

————

Agreement progress delay.

Are you not familiar with Ferio’s well known speech in the Encore ground school(s) that maybe you should hold off on the agreement process for the time being? Right from your Presidents mouth for pete sakes. If thats not resisting I don’t know what is.

How many Encore pilots going to WJA in May?

As you said you can’t afford to loose any more than the 25%. As far as movement goes have you looked at WJA attrition? The new 65 issue? How many guys do you think WJA will be hiring a year? It ain’t going to be that many. Certainly not as much as AC. Westjet pilots are a young group. The median age at WJA is early 40’s which means there is at least a 15-20 year period before attrition equilibrium. (not accounting for the age 65 ruling either).Thats a simple numbers game.

WJA pilots fought very hard to keep 80 hr min guarantee for themselves and it didn’t happen. We barely kept 77.5. You absolutely will not keep 80. It was only ever extended to compensate for the extra days worked that didn’t trigger OT.

I have chatted with several Encore folk about these things. Not everybody there is happy. Each person I talked to felt they were over-promised and under-delivered. In fact, the last two were actively pursing a return to their former employer.

I don’t think my facts are wrong with the exception of the per-diem. I divided TAFB by the dollar amount (not sure how it came up 2.98) but your right its 3.03

I never said Encore pilots weren’t happy…until a few sentences ago and thats what they said not me.

I CAN speak for the early days and it is a fact they were not paid OT for those +20 days because they never reached their OT hour trigger and Encore held them to it. WJPA stepped in to make it right.

If - big IF- Encore pilots ever receive 20% ESP it will only come from the efforts of the WJPA. Management is staunchly opposed. We fought for this from day one for you guys and we are still fighting for it and they are still resisting.

Not sure about my ‘ivory tower’ but I am part of the WJA pilots group that effected many of the improvements to your work conditions in spite of the efforts of Ferio and company.

All I want is for others who are thinking about coming to Encore to be fully aware of all the issues.

[DaveP]

Hi Guys
I'll get the latest facts on the agreement etc and post them when I have a chance. They are definitely moving ahead on that.
I do know that both Westjet courses in May will have 50% flow from Encore (8 pilots coming over). Too far out for July to know yet, but it looks good.
As for attrition at WJ - no we don't have a lot but certainly some interesting numbers when it comes to programs like part-time and the new duty and rest rules. We sit at just over 40 pilots today (over the age of 60) and a considerable number joining them over the next few years. With that I suspect a fair number pulling the pin for retirement.
I also think this 67 program will take off too.
So, who knows - I personally think there will be steady growth to come. Some exciting routes. New 737 max and an ever growing network for the little brother. Things in my opinion won't get worse. I think they will improve. After all - Encore is only turning 2 this spring!

Take care
Dave

[Krimson]

Hey Dave,

Just curious if you could share roughly size of the Encore pool. Also, I know it varies case-by-case, but how long on average are people staying in the pool before a GS date with Encore?

Thanks!

[Canadianjetpilot]

Hi Guys
I'll get the latest facts on the agreement etc and post them when I have a chance. They are definitely moving ahead on that.
I do know that both Westjet courses in May will have 50% flow from Encore (8 pilots coming over). Too far out for July to know yet, but it looks good.
As for attrition at WJ - no we don't have a lot but certainly some interesting numbers when it comes to programs like part-time and the new duty and rest rules. We sit at just over 40 pilots today (over the age of 60) and a considerable number joining them over the next few years. With that I suspect a fair number pulling the pin for retirement.
I also think this 67 program will take off too.
So, who knows - I personally think there will be steady growth to come. Some exciting routes. New 737 max and an ever growing network for the little brother. Things in my opinion won't get worse. I think they will improve. After all - Encore is only turning 2 this spring!

Take care
Dave

"...Too far out from July to know yet" - I know you have an idea, but, in effect, you don't know. Define what "looks good" means.
"...attrition at WJ - no we don't have a lot...". Exactly.
"...we sit at just over 40 pilots....over the age of 60..." - 40 out of nearly 1300. Speaks for itself.
...I think they will improve..." - Very different from "I know they will improve".

I've seen the retirement graphs(based on age 60) and with the exception of a short blip it is shallow across the period.
Maybe post the graph so all can see it to avoid any misunderstandings.
The 65 ruling has already caused reduced retirements and affected upgrades and base movement at WJA.
Duty and rest rules - tell us what you know. How many more crew will WJA need to accommodate these new rules coming into effect.(whenever that may be) Common consensus is another 2 years.
Route structure is moot when the number of tails doesn't change. WJA 737 fleet plan is effectively flat through to 2019. Please tell if you know different.
The 767 program is still a test, a 2 year test, and MAY take root. It is NOT a certainty.

That is a lot of If's and Maybe's.

[tzu]

I'll start by saying that I am a captain with Westjet and have been for over 10 years.

When I started things were very different and for me it was the right career choice at the time and I am happy I am here. Frequently we have conversations in the flightdeck about the next generation of pilots and what they can expect. As of today if you are hired at WJ you are looking at 12+ years to upgrade and the expectation is it may take longer...and you will be based in Toronto.

I can tell you that WJ pilots were very upset with the work conditions offered to Encore people when the airline started. We warned management that they would not get the people they needed to operate those Q400's if they were going to pay such low wages and poor conditions. We were right. Encore struggled to find pilots and it caused training and scheduling nightmares for Encore. In spite of the press releases it was a s**t show. The people that did get hired were worked very hard and paid very little. The trade off for them was that they have/will see a quick trip to the jets. However, after that group, things will dry up. In fact its already started.

If you are hoping to get a quicker trip to Westjet via Encore you may want to rethink the strategy. Based on projected WJ fleet growth (narrow and wide body) combined with relatively few retirements( we have a young pilot group) over the next several years, the potential for movement is very low at best. From a career perspective there are better pay and lifestyle choices via AC/Jazz. For example: Wj will have 15 retirements in the next year vs. AC's over 300. Other things to consider are work conditions and compensation over the course of your career ie. if you are going to sit in the right seat for 10-15 years you should get credit for that. AC offers significantly better credit for that time which means more dollars in you pocket at retirement than your WJ peer.

If you do decide that you want to try Encore just to gain overall experience be aware of what you are in for. Presently WJ management is resisting the push to put an agreement in place for Encore pilots. In fact, Encore's president Ferio Pugliese was in their groundschool recently trying to convince Encore pilots not to start the TA process. Sad and embarrassing.

If you do decide to try Encore you can take some comfort in knowing that WJ pilots an the WJPA are fighting hard to make it a better place to work but for now it's not quite there yet.

Been awhile. Anything new here? Got an interview coming up. Hearing a ton of mixed opinions.
Wondering if it's even worth sacrificing another 4-6 years for the carrot of this so called ône list.
Doing my research - anyone recommend against Encore?

[Liftdump]

Ya they go to shitty places.

[flyingvinnie]

Do the Encore pilots have to pick up garbage and trash on turn-arounds, or is that reserved for mainline pilots only?

[tzu]

I also don't think holding up a poster telling people not to join your (or a subsidy of your) company a positive step forward. Unstaffed planes, pilots quitting do not benefit westjet or westjet encore. I'm curious to know if all these 10yr+ wj employees who voted for encore and now have these concerns are making them known. Your experience and involvement with the company for that long has led to a very successful company so why not work together to make things better instead of trying to hinder the growth of something that directly affects your operation (and your stocks) as well.

I'm not going to 'eat my young' to improve my stock and profit share cheque.

And, we are working to make things better. (not something commonly seen at parent companies)

In simplest terms the only reasons things have improved at Encore are:
1) The conditions were so poor they weren't getting resumes.
NOTE- When the WJ pilots voted for Encore it was with the caveat that they improve the proposed work conditions for just that reason. Well, turns out we were right and so they had to move the bar...just enough to get some bodies coming in the door.
2) The WJ pilots via the WJPA fought/are fighting pretty darn hard for WJE pilots.
i.e. - One list, 80 min guarantee, flow, scheduling and of course a the push for a TA.

Make no mistake. Ferio does not want to give a millimeter and (as many of you know) until its in writing the goal posts can move.

I'm not saying do not come to Encore. If you are willing to accept the conditions than do so. I just want people to be aware of what the REAL conditions are.

I was told this upcoming profit share is going to be their biggest!

[skybaron]

From my understanding, Encore "could" be a good place to go - IF they get some kind of REAL ONE LIST with WestJet. I think the majority of issues stemming from this place is that the wages and conditions are a far cry from their 737 counterparts.

A lot of carrot dangling and excellent marketing on WJ's part. +1

[Guilden]

If your not happy in aviation, go find another career. I don't think there is much more to say.

[tbaylx]

If your not happy in aviation, go find another career. I don't think there is much more to say.

Yah you could tuck tail and run, or do what many have done before you and actually fight for better WAWCON so that in can continue to be a career instead of a hobby. Either way, pick what works for you. Thankfully there are still those that chose to stand up.

[scopiton]

Yah you could tuck tail and run, or do what many have done before you and actually fight for better WAWCON so that in can continue to be a career instead of a hobby. Either way, pick what works for you. Thankfully there are still those that chose to stand up.

+1

[AirMail]

Thanks tbaylx. Guilden, do us all a favour and find another career.