Simple question guys;
How does one go about obtaining an ATPL?
One can buy self study material and take the exams when ready? Entry requirements? Or just go for it..
Regards,
Dan.
Canadian ATPL
Moderators: sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, North Shore
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Jazzman340
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The Requirements for the ATPL are listed below. In order to write the exam you require half of the the total time (1500/2=750 hours). No course is required to write the exam, you can do self-study. No letter of recommendation is required for admission to the exam. Simply show up at a TC office with proof of the required experience. You also nned to have a valid cat 1 medical to write the exams.
DIVISION VIII - AIRLINE TRANSPORT PILOT LICENCE
421.34 Aeroplanes - Requirements
(1) Age
An applicant shall be a minimum of twenty-one years of age.
(2) Medical Fitness and Validity
(a) An applicant shall hold a Category 1 Medical Certificate valid for an Airline Transport Pilot Licence - Aeroplane.
(3) Knowledge
An applicant shall have obtained a minimum of 70% in each of three written examinations on the following aviation subjects:
(a) Airline Transport Pilot Licence (Aeroplane) Meteorology, Radio Aids to Navigation and Flight Planning (SAMRA) including:
(i) general system of weather collection and dissemination,
(ii) weather map, weather forecast, weather abbreviations, symbols and nomenclature,
(iii) pressure systems and their association with fronts, cloud forms and icing conditions,
(iv) the movement of upper winds and their effect on aircraft operations,
(v) weather service circulars and instructions for air route meteorological service which are pertinent to aircraft operations, and
(vi) radio communication procedures relating to aircraft operation; and
(b) Airline Transport Pilot Licence (Aeroplane) Air Law, Aeroplane Operation and Navigation General (SARON) including:
(i) basic principles of air navigation such as formulae, instruments and other navigational aids which are commonly used in the navigation of aircraft,
(ii) basic principles of loading and weight distribution and their effect on flight characteristics,
(iii) Canadian Aviation Regulations, Air Traffic Rules and Procedures, Information Circulars and NOTAM, and
(iv) human factors, including pilot decision-making; and
(c) Instrument Rating (INRAT).
(4) Experience
An applicant shall have met the training requirements for the issue of a Commercial Pilot Licence - Aeroplane that is not restricted to daylight flying and completed a minimum of 1500 hours total flight time of which a minimum of 900 hours shall have been completed in aeroplanes. The total flight time shall include a minimum of:
(amended 2000/09/01; previous version)
(a) 250 hours pilot-in-command flight time in aeroplanes which shall include where applicable, a maximum of 100 hours pilot-in-command under supervision flight time completed in accordance with Section 421.11. The pilot-in-command and/or pilot-in-command under supervision flight time shall include a minimum of 100 hours cross-country flight time of which a minimum of 25 hours shall have been by night;
(b) 100 hours night flight time as pilot-in-command or as co-pilot of which a minimum of 30 hours shall have been acquired in aeroplanes;
(c) 200 hours cross-country flight time as co-pilot in an aeroplane required to be operated with a co-pilot or, 100 additional hours cross-country flight time as pilot-in-command which may have been part of the 250 hours pilot-in-command flight time specified above; and
(d) 75 hours instrument flight time of which a maximum of 25 hours may have been acquired in approved instrument ground trainers and a maximum of 35 hours may have been acquired in helicopters. Instrument ground time shall not be applied toward the total 1500 hour flight time requirement.
(5) Skill
(a) Within the 12 months preceding the date of application for the licence, an applicant shall demonstrate in a multi-engined aeroplane with no central thrust configuration and fitted with instruments and equipment suitable for IFR flight in controlled airspace, familiarity with and the ability:
(amended 1999/03/01; previous version)
(i) to perform both normal and emergency flight procedures and manoeuvres appropriate to the aeroplane in which the flight test is conducted; and
(ii) to execute all manoeuvres and procedures set forth in Division XIV for issue of a Group 1 instrument rating.
DIVISION VIII - AIRLINE TRANSPORT PILOT LICENCE
421.34 Aeroplanes - Requirements
(1) Age
An applicant shall be a minimum of twenty-one years of age.
(2) Medical Fitness and Validity
(a) An applicant shall hold a Category 1 Medical Certificate valid for an Airline Transport Pilot Licence - Aeroplane.
(3) Knowledge
An applicant shall have obtained a minimum of 70% in each of three written examinations on the following aviation subjects:
(a) Airline Transport Pilot Licence (Aeroplane) Meteorology, Radio Aids to Navigation and Flight Planning (SAMRA) including:
(i) general system of weather collection and dissemination,
(ii) weather map, weather forecast, weather abbreviations, symbols and nomenclature,
(iii) pressure systems and their association with fronts, cloud forms and icing conditions,
(iv) the movement of upper winds and their effect on aircraft operations,
(v) weather service circulars and instructions for air route meteorological service which are pertinent to aircraft operations, and
(vi) radio communication procedures relating to aircraft operation; and
(b) Airline Transport Pilot Licence (Aeroplane) Air Law, Aeroplane Operation and Navigation General (SARON) including:
(i) basic principles of air navigation such as formulae, instruments and other navigational aids which are commonly used in the navigation of aircraft,
(ii) basic principles of loading and weight distribution and their effect on flight characteristics,
(iii) Canadian Aviation Regulations, Air Traffic Rules and Procedures, Information Circulars and NOTAM, and
(iv) human factors, including pilot decision-making; and
(c) Instrument Rating (INRAT).
(4) Experience
An applicant shall have met the training requirements for the issue of a Commercial Pilot Licence - Aeroplane that is not restricted to daylight flying and completed a minimum of 1500 hours total flight time of which a minimum of 900 hours shall have been completed in aeroplanes. The total flight time shall include a minimum of:
(amended 2000/09/01; previous version)
(a) 250 hours pilot-in-command flight time in aeroplanes which shall include where applicable, a maximum of 100 hours pilot-in-command under supervision flight time completed in accordance with Section 421.11. The pilot-in-command and/or pilot-in-command under supervision flight time shall include a minimum of 100 hours cross-country flight time of which a minimum of 25 hours shall have been by night;
(b) 100 hours night flight time as pilot-in-command or as co-pilot of which a minimum of 30 hours shall have been acquired in aeroplanes;
(c) 200 hours cross-country flight time as co-pilot in an aeroplane required to be operated with a co-pilot or, 100 additional hours cross-country flight time as pilot-in-command which may have been part of the 250 hours pilot-in-command flight time specified above; and
(d) 75 hours instrument flight time of which a maximum of 25 hours may have been acquired in approved instrument ground trainers and a maximum of 35 hours may have been acquired in helicopters. Instrument ground time shall not be applied toward the total 1500 hour flight time requirement.
(5) Skill
(a) Within the 12 months preceding the date of application for the licence, an applicant shall demonstrate in a multi-engined aeroplane with no central thrust configuration and fitted with instruments and equipment suitable for IFR flight in controlled airspace, familiarity with and the ability:
(amended 1999/03/01; previous version)
(i) to perform both normal and emergency flight procedures and manoeuvres appropriate to the aeroplane in which the flight test is conducted; and
(ii) to execute all manoeuvres and procedures set forth in Division XIV for issue of a Group 1 instrument rating.
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wallypilot
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To summarise the above novel:
1500 TT
250 PIC
100 Night, (PIC or CP....dual with instructor doesn't count)
75 Instrument (25 can be on simulator)
100 hours PIC cross country including 25 night cross country
2 Written Exams: details listed above
Current Cat 1 Medical
Group 1 Instrument Rating (MEI)with Group 1 Flight test in past 12 months
Second in command time counts 50% towards total time.
As for the exam, you can self study, or there are 3 day cram courses available from a couple of different companies which are quite good, but not required. It is a lot more straight forward than your JAA ATPL, so if you have that already, you will find this a piece of cake.
1500 TT
250 PIC
100 Night, (PIC or CP....dual with instructor doesn't count)
75 Instrument (25 can be on simulator)
100 hours PIC cross country including 25 night cross country
2 Written Exams: details listed above
Current Cat 1 Medical
Group 1 Instrument Rating (MEI)with Group 1 Flight test in past 12 months
Second in command time counts 50% towards total time.
As for the exam, you can self study, or there are 3 day cram courses available from a couple of different companies which are quite good, but not required. It is a lot more straight forward than your JAA ATPL, so if you have that already, you will find this a piece of cake.
If you did it in this manner you wre lucky.TTail wrote:Not true. Your medical need not be valid. As long as you have HELD a class 1 at some point in the past. Not trying to be a jerk, just wanted to clarify as I did my exams in this manner.Aeros wrote: You also nned to have a valid cat 1 medical to write the exams.
.
421.13 Examination Prerequisites
(1) For admission to a written examination required for the issue of a permit, licence or rating an applicant shall have met the medical standards for the issue of the permit, licence or rating and shall produce proof of medical fitness in one of the following forms:
(a) a Medical Certificate in the appropriate medical category;
(b) a Medical Assessment Letter (Form 26-0417) in the appropriate medical category;
(c) in the case of a Student Pilot Permit - Aeroplane, Pilot Permit - Ultra-light Aeroplane or Pilot Licence - Glider, a Civil Aviation Medical Declaration (Form 26-0297);
(d) a temporary Medical Certificate in the appropriate medical category; or
(e) a Medical Examination Report assessed to the appropriate medical category by the Regional Aviation Medical Officer.
I have spoken with many folks in Transport. All of them have told me that they have been directed to interpret this as meaning the medical must be valid. That being said, if you can find someone that reads it as meaning that you must have at one point held one, then go for it. It wouldn't be the first time that different people at TC interpret the rules to mean different things.
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Jazzman340
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- Location: London, UK
Holy ****. I'm English, but my PPL is Canadian. I wish to reside in Canada that's why. Those rules look pretty tough. Some peoples mini stories would be quite inspirational!
Over here, as I understand it, but not gospel, you can sit the ATPL if you have a PPL but its totally pointless!
I am currently saving all the money necessary for an arrival in Toronto around July. I need (and want) everthing. CPL, Multi, Instrument. I am 20. (Money will not be a problem next year).
I guess you need all of these to have any chane to be employed with say, Jazz? (Funny, I love Jazz, and teach Jazz piano. That would be amazing).
Any recommendations? Routes? I have 110 hours (all canadian) on the PPL. I'll get my Medical 1 of course before hand. It just seems that to get the ATPL, you need to have spent loads of money and dont loads of flying, and so much so that it looks like you could go straight into an airline just after training without having to "spend money" on 'building hours' as you seem to need so much.
I read a 3 day crash course. You mean, 3 days to study ATPL material? I think I misunderstood that. I guess I can study alongside my other ratings and then once completed, go for the exam. But crikey, I am shocked, and a little depressed I must say, at the amount of hours required for it.
Nevertheless, childhood dream for18 years... No stopping me!!!
Thanks people. Really appreciate it.
Dan;
Hmm, come to think of it, it doesnt mention a CPL?? Does that mean I can come out, do my Multi onto my PPL, do my Night, do my Multi, bulid some hours, and eventually go for the ATPL, in the sense that is covers a CPL like the CPL covers an ATPL?
Over here, as I understand it, but not gospel, you can sit the ATPL if you have a PPL but its totally pointless!
I am currently saving all the money necessary for an arrival in Toronto around July. I need (and want) everthing. CPL, Multi, Instrument. I am 20. (Money will not be a problem next year).
I guess you need all of these to have any chane to be employed with say, Jazz? (Funny, I love Jazz, and teach Jazz piano. That would be amazing).
Any recommendations? Routes? I have 110 hours (all canadian) on the PPL. I'll get my Medical 1 of course before hand. It just seems that to get the ATPL, you need to have spent loads of money and dont loads of flying, and so much so that it looks like you could go straight into an airline just after training without having to "spend money" on 'building hours' as you seem to need so much.
I read a 3 day crash course. You mean, 3 days to study ATPL material? I think I misunderstood that. I guess I can study alongside my other ratings and then once completed, go for the exam. But crikey, I am shocked, and a little depressed I must say, at the amount of hours required for it.
Nevertheless, childhood dream for18 years... No stopping me!!!
Thanks people. Really appreciate it.
Dan;
Hmm, come to think of it, it doesnt mention a CPL?? Does that mean I can come out, do my Multi onto my PPL, do my Night, do my Multi, bulid some hours, and eventually go for the ATPL, in the sense that is covers a CPL like the CPL covers an ATPL?
Some advice I got and stupidly ignored:
-when building time for your commercial, do 100 hours at night. You will probably find yourself down the road with a very poor paying job, your exams about to expire (good for two years only) and short of the 100 night hour requirement for the ATPL.
-get to 150 hours, do the commercial flight test, then do the multi-ifr with the remaining 50 hours you need for the comm licence. No one cares if you have 220 hours or 201.3. Use the money you save to do a roadtrip to get a ramp job or put it towards an instructor's rating.
Best of luck
-when building time for your commercial, do 100 hours at night. You will probably find yourself down the road with a very poor paying job, your exams about to expire (good for two years only) and short of the 100 night hour requirement for the ATPL.
-get to 150 hours, do the commercial flight test, then do the multi-ifr with the remaining 50 hours you need for the comm licence. No one cares if you have 220 hours or 201.3. Use the money you save to do a roadtrip to get a ramp job or put it towards an instructor's rating.
Best of luck
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Jazzman340
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- Location: London, UK
Let me see if I can clear up some of the confusion.
Jazzman, it sounds like you are coming from a European background as far as the licencing requirements go. I will assume that this is correct in my answer.
You are right, you do not need to hold a commercial licence before getting the ATPL. That being said, it is pretty pricey to pay for all that flying. Generally speaking, you would get your commercial licence around 200 hours and go get a flying job of some sort where you would build the rest of the hours to get you from 200 to 1500.
What I think Fotoflyer is saying is as follows:
There is a period of time between getting your Private Licence and your Commercial Licence. The flying that you have to do is dedicated to gaining more experience. Fotoflyer is recommending that you do as much of this time building at night as possible. One of the most common elements that people applying for the ATPL are missing is the night time. Another is cross-country time. In many cases, applicants are forced to go out and rent an aircraft and pay for the time out of their pocket. He is suggesting, and I would agree, that since you are paying out of your pocket for the time between the Private and Commercial Licences you might as well take care of the night time then (and I would suggest to make as much of it cross-country as possible), rather then when you are getting paid peanuts and can barely afford to eat.
Also, you can complete the flight test for the Commercial Licence at 150 hours. But you need 200 hours to get the licence. He is also suggesting that you try to complete the flight test at 150. Then, you can spend the rest of the time on the way to 200 by completing the requirements for the instrument rating. This system essentially results in the least amount of trainig time, hence fewest $$.
Hope this clears things up.
Jazzman, it sounds like you are coming from a European background as far as the licencing requirements go. I will assume that this is correct in my answer.
You are right, you do not need to hold a commercial licence before getting the ATPL. That being said, it is pretty pricey to pay for all that flying. Generally speaking, you would get your commercial licence around 200 hours and go get a flying job of some sort where you would build the rest of the hours to get you from 200 to 1500.
What I think Fotoflyer is saying is as follows:
There is a period of time between getting your Private Licence and your Commercial Licence. The flying that you have to do is dedicated to gaining more experience. Fotoflyer is recommending that you do as much of this time building at night as possible. One of the most common elements that people applying for the ATPL are missing is the night time. Another is cross-country time. In many cases, applicants are forced to go out and rent an aircraft and pay for the time out of their pocket. He is suggesting, and I would agree, that since you are paying out of your pocket for the time between the Private and Commercial Licences you might as well take care of the night time then (and I would suggest to make as much of it cross-country as possible), rather then when you are getting paid peanuts and can barely afford to eat.
Also, you can complete the flight test for the Commercial Licence at 150 hours. But you need 200 hours to get the licence. He is also suggesting that you try to complete the flight test at 150. Then, you can spend the rest of the time on the way to 200 by completing the requirements for the instrument rating. This system essentially results in the least amount of trainig time, hence fewest $$.
Hope this clears things up.
What? So some guy who owns his own aircraft and has flown it for the last 10 years can get an ATPL without ever having passed a commercial flight test?Aeros wrote:You are right, you do not need to hold a commercial licence before getting the ATPL.
This cannot possibly be true.
You must meet all of the training requirements for an unrestricted Commercial Licence but you don't actually need to have completed the flight test, nor do you actually need to hold a Commercial Licence.sakism wrote:What? So some guy who owns his own aircraft and has flown it for the last 10 years can get an ATPL without ever having passed a commercial flight test?Aeros wrote:You are right, you do not need to hold a commercial licence before getting the ATPL.
This cannot possibly be true.
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Jazzman340
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Thanks guys. Thats much clearer, and makes much moe sense.
I've been looking at Brampton in Toronto(well, west of). The costs, according to their own numbers are, for me, as follows:
CPL - Groundschool, 19hours dual, 10 hours solo, flight test C$4,740
Mulit-IFR - Groundschool, 20 hours dual, 20 hours sim, 8 hours briefing, flight test = C$9,528
Total = C$14,268
Hours obtained from above = 69
My hours = 100 ish Thats about 10 instrument and 0 night.
Hour time building will be extra of course.
That will get me into a decent position won't it?
Oopinions?
I've been looking at Brampton in Toronto(well, west of). The costs, according to their own numbers are, for me, as follows:
CPL - Groundschool, 19hours dual, 10 hours solo, flight test C$4,740
Mulit-IFR - Groundschool, 20 hours dual, 20 hours sim, 8 hours briefing, flight test = C$9,528
Total = C$14,268
Hours obtained from above = 69
My hours = 100 ish Thats about 10 instrument and 0 night.
Hour time building will be extra of course.
That will get me into a decent position won't it?
Oopinions?
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Jazzman340
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- Joined: Tue Sep 13, 2005 1:37 am
- Location: London, UK
Jazz will love it.-
Jazzman340
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- Joined: Tue Sep 13, 2005 1:37 am
- Location: London, UK
What a bloody good idea!
The reason I say money is not a problem is not rich parents, nor grandparents (not to say they arent :p) but I do not accept things thrown on a plate. I teach Jazz Piano. And, seeing as I have no problem sharing it, I gross about 4,200 canadian dollars a month. I get new students all the time. In England, 20 pounds an hour is about right...I also travel to the homes. Exchange rate is about 2.3 average.
Planning to come out about June. Am 20, live at home simply to save (more) money for the flying, instead of paying rediculous prices for shitey little apartments over here. So, very low expenditure. Simple really.
By June I'll be very well clear of 25 thousand C$.
Nevetheless, i still need to spend as little as possible and get as much as posible. I may well have the money, but thats good saving, and purpose, but its all gonna go towards my life!!!
I appreciate all the responses here. Hope to fly with some, someday.
Airbus 330/340 is the ultimate for me.
Dan.
The reason I say money is not a problem is not rich parents, nor grandparents (not to say they arent :p) but I do not accept things thrown on a plate. I teach Jazz Piano. And, seeing as I have no problem sharing it, I gross about 4,200 canadian dollars a month. I get new students all the time. In England, 20 pounds an hour is about right...I also travel to the homes. Exchange rate is about 2.3 average.
Planning to come out about June. Am 20, live at home simply to save (more) money for the flying, instead of paying rediculous prices for shitey little apartments over here. So, very low expenditure. Simple really.
By June I'll be very well clear of 25 thousand C$.
Nevetheless, i still need to spend as little as possible and get as much as posible. I may well have the money, but thats good saving, and purpose, but its all gonna go towards my life!!!
I appreciate all the responses here. Hope to fly with some, someday.
Airbus 330/340 is the ultimate for me.
Dan.
Re: Canadian ATPL
Jazzman340:
It is required to have an experience of 750 TT before you can even write the SAMRA and SARON tests.
How most Canadian flyboys / girls go about getting that time in the book is by instructing or ramping / dispatching long enough to get into an airplane.
Instructing builds PIC time and experience. This lets you advance from FO to Skipper much faster.
Ramping / dispatching prepares you better for the real world of airline ops.
There are some flight schools that offer the whole package, and have an airline operation to move up to.
Gander is one of these.
I started there with my PPL, now I have finished my Multi / IFR and CPL.
I then dispatched, and progressed to Chief Dispatcher.
I now sit in their right seat! In an airplane that is operated for Air Canada.
There are few shortcuts in Canada, and that makes it safe here. But there are schools that can shorten your route without that foolish university degree / frozen ATPL shenanigans!
Blue skies and tailwinds dude!
It is required to have an experience of 750 TT before you can even write the SAMRA and SARON tests.
How most Canadian flyboys / girls go about getting that time in the book is by instructing or ramping / dispatching long enough to get into an airplane.
Instructing builds PIC time and experience. This lets you advance from FO to Skipper much faster.
Ramping / dispatching prepares you better for the real world of airline ops.
There are some flight schools that offer the whole package, and have an airline operation to move up to.
Gander is one of these.
I started there with my PPL, now I have finished my Multi / IFR and CPL.
I then dispatched, and progressed to Chief Dispatcher.
I now sit in their right seat! In an airplane that is operated for Air Canada.
There are few shortcuts in Canada, and that makes it safe here. But there are schools that can shorten your route without that foolish university degree / frozen ATPL shenanigans!
Blue skies and tailwinds dude!
