200 Hrs CPL getting hired at 703

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MarkyMark90
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200 Hrs CPL getting hired at 703

#1 Post by MarkyMark90 » Sat Jul 15, 2017 9:16 am

Hello everyone,

Quick question regarding the situation of 703 operators in Canada. I'm hearing many of them are starting to hire fresh CPLs with only 200 hours (and some multi time) in the box as they are unable to get more experienced pilot for their right seats. Are you seeing the same thing?

For many years, instruction was the most common route to get to an airline (if the airline was the ultimate goal). I see more and more people deciding not to pursue the instructor route and go directly fly for companies.

I'm asking this because I'm about to finish my CPL in a few months and still trying to figure out what will be my next steps. Don't get me wrong, I used to be a teaching assistant at the university and I love teaching and helping, but I'm not targeting that kind of job in the industry. My goal is to get to the major airlines in Canada. If destiny brings me to instruction, I'll be as dedicated as I can to help develop the students I will be assigned.

Projected profile when I will finish:
TT: 200 hrs
PIC: 130 hrs
Multi: 40 hrs
Night: 75 hrs

Thanks for you insights!
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Re: 200 Hrs CPL getting hired at 703

#2 Post by cdnpilot77 » Sat Jul 15, 2017 7:36 pm

MarkyMark90 wrote:
Projected profile when I will finish:
TT: 200 hrs
PIC: 130 hrs
Multi: 40 hrs
Night: 75 hrs
So essentially the exact same as every other CPL-MIFR college graduate. What do you have that will set yourself apart from all the others? That in itself (unless you know people) will decide your "destiny".
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Re: 200 Hrs CPL getting hired at 703

#3 Post by Black_Tusk » Mon Jul 17, 2017 10:40 am

If you want any sort of a chance at finding a flying job right away it will require sacrifices. Mostly, packing your car and leaving the city. Don't stop driving until you find a job... and be prepared that it may be a few years before you get back home.
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Re: 200 Hrs CPL getting hired at 703

#4 Post by skybluetrek » Wed Jul 19, 2017 2:23 pm

Black_Tusk wrote:If you want any sort of a chance at finding a flying job right away it will require sacrifices. Mostly, packing your car and leaving the city. Don't stop driving until you find a job... and be prepared that it may be a few years before you get back home.
Starting as a Rampy most likely?
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Re: 200 Hrs CPL getting hired at 703

#5 Post by FighterPilot » Wed Jul 19, 2017 2:31 pm

skybluetrek wrote:
Black_Tusk wrote:If you want any sort of a chance at finding a flying job right away it will require sacrifices. Mostly, packing your car and leaving the city. Don't stop driving until you find a job... and be prepared that it may be a few years before you get back home.
Starting as a Rampy most likely?
Tons of places hurting for drivers right now. That's the beauty of the road trip, you driver across Canada til you find a flying job. If the operator offers you a job on the ramp/dock you say, "thanks but no thanks," and keep on driving.
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Re: 200 Hrs CPL getting hired at 703

#6 Post by Black_Tusk » Wed Jul 19, 2017 10:25 pm

I lived in my car for 2 months until I found a flying job. I actually found a few.... took the best one.
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skybluetrek
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Re: 200 Hrs CPL getting hired at 703

#7 Post by skybluetrek » Thu Jul 20, 2017 1:01 pm

What's it like to start flying a turbo prop in the North with 200 hrs? Particularly when you're not from around.
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Re: 200 Hrs CPL getting hired at 703

#8 Post by Adam Oke » Thu Jul 20, 2017 1:29 pm

skybluetrek wrote:What's it like to start flying a turbo prop in the North with 200 hrs? Particularly when you're not from around.
A rude awakening, and and a hell'ov a good time! I had a blast in the north.

10 Years ago, I would say get driving and find a good dock job ... I think there should be no problem finding a flying gig right out of the gate. I don't think FO on a turbo prop is out of the question either.

Good luck!
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skybluetrek
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Re: 200 Hrs CPL getting hired at 703

#9 Post by skybluetrek » Thu Jul 20, 2017 2:03 pm

Adam Oke wrote:
skybluetrek wrote:What's it like to start flying a turbo prop in the North with 200 hrs? Particularly when you're not from around.
A rude awakening, and and a hell'ov a good time! I had a blast in the north.

10 Years ago, I would say get driving and find a good dock job ... I think there should be no problem finding a flying gig right out of the gate. I don't think FO on a turbo prop is out of the question either.

Good luck!
A rude awakening, that's what I thought as well. :goodman: FO on a turboprop is what I had in mind.
Thanks for the note.
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a313
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Re: 200 Hrs CPL getting hired at 703

#10 Post by a313 » Thu Jul 20, 2017 5:30 pm

i'm basically in the same boat right now as OP sitting around 250 hours... can those who have done the drive kindly PM me with some more details.
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Re: 200 Hrs CPL getting hired at 703

#11 Post by Black_Tusk » Thu Jul 20, 2017 8:18 pm

skybluetrek wrote:
Adam Oke wrote:
skybluetrek wrote:What's it like to start flying a turbo prop in the North with 200 hrs? Particularly when you're not from around.
A rude awakening, and and a hell'ov a good time! I had a blast in the north.

10 Years ago, I would say get driving and find a good dock job ... I think there should be no problem finding a flying gig right out of the gate. I don't think FO on a turbo prop is out of the question either.

Good luck!
A rude awakening, that's what I thought as well. :goodman: FO on a turboprop is what I had in mind.
Thanks for the note.
Don't limit it to turbo props, you can find good piston multi gigs out there too. You may have trouble finding right seat in a King Air without 500 hours since that seems to be a pretty standard medevac minimum. Also, I suggest not doing mede. I had a ton of fun flying Navajo charters all over NWO/MB.
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Re: 200 Hrs CPL getting hired at 703

#12 Post by RocksAndProps » Thu Nov 30, 2017 5:20 pm

Looking for any advice for Western & Northern Canada. Same boat as above... Any ideas are welcome. Just about to graduate Uni.
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Re: 200 Hrs CPL getting hired at 703

#13 Post by shimmydampner » Fri Dec 01, 2017 10:15 am

skybluetrek wrote:
Thu Jul 20, 2017 2:03 pm
FO on a turboprop is what I had in mind.
For the love of god, no. Look, I get it, right seat in a 200 or 350 or 1900 or Metro or whatever SEEMS like the more sensible route to your airline goal. The airplanes are equipped and flown and operated more similarly to airliners than the lowly single pilot light piston aircraft that would be your alternative. It is, however, an illusion that fools the short-sighted. I have flown/fly with so many young pilots who have fallen victim to this and are now stuck. Do not forget that ultimately you will need an ATPL to reach your goal, and a requirement to get your ATPL is PIC time. If you find yourself in the right seat of an aircraft that requires an ATPL to be a captain (which is a situation that is easier than ever for young pilots to find themselves in) and you do not have the requirements for that license, you will never go captain, and in turn, never get your ATPL in that job. Of course, this is not insurmountable, but you will find yourself in a position where you will either need to pay for those hours droning around in the circuit at the closest flying club, or leave that job for another that allows you to get that PIC time. This is just my opinion, so it’s worth what you paid for it, but you would be far better to find a PIC job right out of the gate if possible, even one on a lowly Cessna piston single, and stick with it for at least a year. Not only will you rapidly gain the critical time towards the higher license, but even more importantly, you will learn important lessons in making command decisions and gain invaluable experiences in the art of actually being able to fly an airplane in all seasons and conditions, at a level which simply cannot be had from the right seat. (Furthermore, in spite of the fact that many people will scoff at the idea of going to the remote locations where these jobs are often found, you might actually find it to be an enriching and rewarding time from a life experience perspective.) Then, when you find yourself ready to move on to the right seat of a 1900 or whatever, you will be a more complete, competent crew member with the qualifications to one day captain that aircraft and ultimately reach your airline goals.
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Re: 200 Hrs CPL getting hired at 703

#14 Post by lownslow » Fri Dec 01, 2017 11:43 am

What shimmydampner said (except it's damper). Look for companies that fly piston singles and you can start getting paid to log PIC time next week. Even better if the company has a turbine or a twin to slide over on once you have some experience and have built some trust. Start there and you can be in the right seat of a Q400 before next Christmas.
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Re: 200 Hrs CPL getting hired at 703

#15 Post by skybluetrek » Tue Dec 05, 2017 8:06 am

shimmydampner wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 10:15 am
skybluetrek wrote:
Thu Jul 20, 2017 2:03 pm
FO on a turboprop is what I had in mind.
For the love of god, no. Look, I get it, right seat in a 200 or 350 or 1900 or Metro or whatever SEEMS like the more sensible route to your airline goal. The airplanes are equipped and flown and operated more similarly to airliners than the lowly single pilot light piston aircraft that would be your alternative. It is, however, an illusion that fools the short-sighted. I have flown/fly with so many young pilots who have fallen victim to this and are now stuck. Do not forget that ultimately you will need an ATPL to reach your goal, and a requirement to get your ATPL is PIC time. If you find yourself in the right seat of an aircraft that requires an ATPL to be a captain (which is a situation that is easier than ever for young pilots to find themselves in) and you do not have the requirements for that license, you will never go captain, and in turn, never get your ATPL in that job. Of course, this is not insurmountable, but you will find yourself in a position where you will either need to pay for those hours droning around in the circuit at the closest flying club, or leave that job for another that allows you to get that PIC time. This is just my opinion, so it’s worth what you paid for it, but you would be far better to find a PIC job right out of the gate if possible, even one on a lowly Cessna piston single, and stick with it for at least a year. Not only will you rapidly gain the critical time towards the higher license, but even more importantly, you will learn important lessons in making command decisions and gain invaluable experiences in the art of actually being able to fly an airplane in all seasons and conditions, at a level which simply cannot be had from the right seat. (Furthermore, in spite of the fact that many people will scoff at the idea of going to the remote locations where these jobs are often found, you might actually find it to be an enriching and rewarding time from a life experience perspective.) Then, when you find yourself ready to move on to the right seat of a 1900 or whatever, you will be a more complete, competent crew member with the qualifications to one day captain that aircraft and ultimately reach your airline goals.
lownslow wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 11:43 am
What shimmydampner said (except it's damper). Look for companies that fly piston singles and you can start getting paid to log PIC time next week. Even better if the company has a turbine or a twin to slide over on once you have some experience and have built some trust. Start there and you can be in the right seat of a Q400 before next Christmas.
Well said guys, you're absolutely right. Thanks for the advice.
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Re: 200 Hrs CPL getting hired at 703

#16 Post by digits_ » Tue Dec 05, 2017 11:56 am

Take PIC on a single engine. Look for PIC on a tiny multi and 3 years after your cpl you'll be direct entry captain on the B1900.
Which will take about as long as if you were hired as a B1900 FO right away, but you'll learn much more.

Which makes you wonder who will be a "better/safer" B1900 captain: a DEC with all PIC experience but no B1900 time, or a B1900 FO who gets an upgrade after flying the B1900 exclusively?
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Re: 200 Hrs CPL getting hired at 703

#17 Post by 7507 » Tue Dec 05, 2017 12:11 pm

shimmydampner wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 10:15 am
skybluetrek wrote:
Thu Jul 20, 2017 2:03 pm
FO on a turboprop is what I had in mind.
For the love of god, no. Look, I get it, right seat in a 200 or 350 or 1900 or Metro or whatever SEEMS like the more sensible route to your airline goal. The airplanes are equipped and flown and operated more similarly to airliners than the lowly single pilot light piston aircraft that would be your alternative. It is, however, an illusion that fools the short-sighted. I have flown/fly with so many young pilots who have fallen victim to this and are now stuck. Do not forget that ultimately you will need an ATPL to reach your goal, and a requirement to get your ATPL is PIC time. If you find yourself in the right seat of an aircraft that requires an ATPL to be a captain (which is a situation that is easier than ever for young pilots to find themselves in) and you do not have the requirements for that license, you will never go captain, and in turn, never get your ATPL in that job. Of course, this is not insurmountable, but you will find yourself in a position where you will either need to pay for those hours droning around in the circuit at the closest flying club, or leave that job for another that allows you to get that PIC time. This is just my opinion, so it’s worth what you paid for it, but you would be far better to find a PIC job right out of the gate if possible, even one on a lowly Cessna piston single, and stick with it for at least a year. Not only will you rapidly gain the critical time towards the higher license, but even more importantly, you will learn important lessons in making command decisions and gain invaluable experiences in the art of actually being able to fly an airplane in all seasons and conditions, at a level which simply cannot be had from the right seat. (Furthermore, in spite of the fact that many people will scoff at the idea of going to the remote locations where these jobs are often found, you might actually find it to be an enriching and rewarding time from a life experience perspective.) Then, when you find yourself ready to move on to the right seat of a 1900 or whatever, you will be a more complete, competent crew member with the qualifications to one day captain that aircraft and ultimately reach your airline goals.

So if I want to build up another 200 hours or so so I can be almost ready to apply for the right seat job it's best to fly a single as much as possible on your coin and be close.to home .
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Re: 200 Hrs CPL getting hired at 703

#18 Post by 7507 » Tue Dec 05, 2017 12:15 pm

digits_ wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 11:56 am
Take PIC on a single engine. Look for PIC on a tiny multi and 3 years after your cpl you'll be direct entry captain on the B1900.
Which will take about as long as if you were hired as a B1900 FO right away, but you'll learn much more.

Which makes you wonder who will be a "better/safer" B1900 captain: a DEC with all PIC experience but no B1900 time, or a B1900 FO who gets an upgrade after flying the B1900 exclusively?
[/quote

Do you think in 3 years time things will still be sweet for us low timers to get in? Will the shortage still be around?
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Re: 200 Hrs CPL getting hired at 703

#19 Post by goingnowherefast » Tue Dec 05, 2017 2:21 pm

There's lots of king air, PC12, caravan and Navajo jobs where you don't need an ATPL to be captain. The problem with single engine piston jobs is usually no night time. Just watch out for companies where a contract requirement is ATPL. You'll still be a right seat lifer. Nothing wrong with being an FO on a Navajo, or PC12, upgrading, finishing off your ATPL as captain. You'll be getting all the ATPL requirements as PIC. Then move on to a 1900 or even into 705.
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Re: 200 Hrs CPL getting hired at 703

#20 Post by MarkyMark90 » Tue Dec 05, 2017 4:12 pm

I'd be curious to know which companies hires newcomers with 200 hours on a right seat in a PC12/BE10/Navajo... The ones we see, they ask you to wait while doing ramp work (they advertise 6 months of ramp work, but many are sooo much lucky to be on the ramp for something like 2 years)
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Re: 200 Hrs CPL getting hired at 703

#21 Post by skybluetrek » Tue Dec 05, 2017 4:56 pm

goingnowherefast wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 2:21 pm
There's lots of king air, PC12, caravan and Navajo jobs where you don't need an ATPL to be captain. The problem with single engine piston jobs is usually no night time. Just watch out for companies where a contract requirement is ATPL. You'll still be a right seat lifer. Nothing wrong with being an FO on a Navajo, or PC12, upgrading, finishing off your ATPL as captain. You'll be getting all the ATPL requirements as PIC. Then move on to a 1900 or even into 705.
Ok so you're basically saying the opposite: Do get that F/O position with low hours, wait until you get upgrade in a company without the ATPL requirement and then work towards it on the left seat.
Interesting approach as well.
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Re: 200 Hrs CPL getting hired at 703

#22 Post by dogga » Tue Dec 05, 2017 5:31 pm

So to jump on this discussion, the lets say instructor job wont bring you night flying too much? But PIC will be achieved quite fast? Its a 15000 extra as well for stepping stone job. Or is it better to find right seat, got confusing.
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Re: 200 Hrs CPL getting hired at 703

#23 Post by goingnowherefast » Tue Dec 05, 2017 7:18 pm

Instructing is a viable option, many do it and it works well. Don't do it as a calculated career move, only do it if you enjoy teaching. If you don't like it, you will be miserable, your students and coworkers won't like you either.

I'm not going to say one path is "better" than the other. Its more personal preference and what YOU will enjoy.
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Re: 200 Hrs CPL getting hired at 703

#24 Post by shimmydampner » Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:09 am

lownslow wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 11:43 am
What shimmydampner said (except it's damper).
Indeed. However, I like to land on the nose wheel, which invariably induces a shimmy, which in turn causes me to spill my coffee, thus dampening my pants. As for the contracted spelling of “damp’ner”...I find that, in much the same way that typing “2” instead of “to” or “too” or “two”, or “U” instead of “you” or “ewe” saves me valuable seconds of my life, omitting the “e” in “dampener” allows me to log in to avcanada faster, so I can get to the important business of offering unsolicited opinions on the pressing topics of the day, such as “why is the ramp a thing.”

Speaking of my unsolicited opinion, to you guys asking for a hard and fast, exact recipe for the path from flight school to Dreamliner captain: I think you’re losing sight of the forest for the trees a little bit. (Although needing to have it spelled out for you shows you’ll be great airline pilots one day. :wink: ) It’s not rocket appliances and there is no one way that’s the best or only way. Just don’t get caught up with the type of aircraft you’re flying initially. That is putting the cart before the horse. Instead, be cognizant of the type of experience and time you will need to achieve not only your ultimate goal, but also the stepping stones along the way to that goal. To advance successfully in aviation, you need experience (although, less so now than almost ever before) and not all experience is of equal value. Strategize accordingly.
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Re: 200 Hrs CPL getting hired at 703

#25 Post by goingnowherefast » Wed Dec 06, 2017 4:23 pm

shimmydampner wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:09 am
lownslow wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 11:43 am
What shimmydampner said (except it's damper).
Indeed. However, I like to land on the nose wheel, which invariably induces a shimmy, which in turn causes me to spill my coffee, thus dampening my pants. As for the contracted spelling of “damp’ner”...I find that, in much the same way that typing “2” instead of “to” or “too” or “two”, or “U” instead of “you” or “ewe” saves me valuable seconds of my life, omitting the “e” in “dampener” allows me to log in to avcanada faster, so I can get to the important business of offering unsolicited opinions on the pressing topics of the day, such as “why is the ramp a thing.”
You probably dampen the pants of the other pilot when you scare the feces out of them landing on the nose wheel! You gave me a good laugh though.
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