labour lawyer recommendation

Got a hot employment or interview tip to help a fellow aviator find a job or looking for a little job advice place your posting here.

Moderators: ahramin, sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, North Shore

throwaway
Rank 0
Rank 0
Posts: 1
Joined: Thu Jan 25, 2018 10:47 am

labour lawyer recommendation

Post by throwaway » Thu Jan 25, 2018 10:55 am

Does anybody have the name/number of a labour lawyer who is well versed in aviation case law regarding training bonds and/or contract issues?
---------- ADS -----------
  

goingnowherefast
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1640
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2013 9:24 am

Re: labour lawyer recommendation

Post by goingnowherefast » Thu Jan 25, 2018 8:05 pm

Did you work for Skycare?
---------- ADS -----------
  

Taxivasion
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 100
Joined: Wed Oct 15, 2014 10:23 am
Location: ysb

Re: labour lawyer recommendation

Post by Taxivasion » Fri Jan 26, 2018 10:51 am

I know who not to use- YYZ Law in Toronto.
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
JohnnyHotRocks
Rank 8
Rank 8
Posts: 977
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 7:18 am

Re: labour lawyer recommendation

Post by JohnnyHotRocks » Fri Jan 26, 2018 12:36 pm

If you signed a training bond and jumped ship....do the honourable thing and pay what you agreed to pay. Simple
---------- ADS -----------
  

paddy
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 180
Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2006 8:37 pm

Re: labour lawyer recommendation

Post by paddy » Fri Jan 26, 2018 3:24 pm

JohnnyHotRocks wrote:
Fri Jan 26, 2018 12:36 pm
If you signed a training bond and jumped ship....do the honourable thing and pay what you agreed to pay. Simple
But you don’t understand...he doesn’t want to work there anymore so shouldn’t have to pay it back. He only agreed to the bond because at the time he did want to work there.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Black_Tusk
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 693
Joined: Sun Oct 09, 2016 8:57 am

Re: labour lawyer recommendation

Post by Black_Tusk » Fri Jan 26, 2018 4:29 pm

I know of someone who got taken to court for a training bond they never actually signed (company never asked). Some people won't have the means to pay a lawyer so they just settle. It's dirty and if it happened to me I'd fight right through to a court verdict.
---------- ADS -----------
  

2112
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 15
Joined: Wed Nov 29, 2017 2:33 pm

Re: labour lawyer recommendation

Post by 2112 » Fri Jan 26, 2018 5:10 pm

Stop signing/agreeing to bonds for god sakes people, the shoe is on the other foot as far as experienced pilots are concerned and training is a cost of doing business. No bond no need for a lawyer to leave a shitty job.
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
Blueontop
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 154
Joined: Thu Nov 27, 2014 8:01 pm

Re: labour lawyer recommendation

Post by Blueontop » Fri Jan 26, 2018 6:20 pm

Why is it expected that us employees are supposed to be noble and play nice but when as soon as it suits the company to drop said employee because of economics, its suddenly ok for the company to do whatever for its bottom line. Company has no real loyalty to employees yet the employees better honour a contract that the company would walk out on itself if it benefited it
---------- ADS -----------
  

C.W.E.
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1187
Joined: Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:22 pm

Re: labour lawyer recommendation

Post by C.W.E. » Fri Jan 26, 2018 6:24 pm

and training is a cost of doing business.
Exactly and it can be quite expensive for the company doing the hiring, therefore many require some form of commitment for a given time frame from the pilot being hired to make sure they don't leave when they get a better offer and the company has not received hardly any value for the training.

I do however agree that you should not pay for your training up front, the bond should be for xxx $ for xxx months and pro rated over that time frame.
No bond no need for a lawyer to leave a shitty job.
What do you consider a shitty job?
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
schnitzel2k3
Rank 8
Rank 8
Posts: 805
Joined: Sun May 15, 2011 11:17 pm

Re: labour lawyer recommendation

Post by schnitzel2k3 » Fri Jan 26, 2018 7:07 pm

C.W.E. wrote:
Fri Jan 26, 2018 6:24 pm
and training is a cost of doing business.
Exactly and it can be quite expensive for the company doing the hiring, therefore many require some form of commitment for a given time frame from the pilot being hired to make sure they don't leave when they get a better offer and the company has not received hardly any value for the training.

I do however agree that you should not pay for your training up front, the bond should be for xxx $ for xxx months and pro rated over that time frame.
No bond no need for a lawyer to leave a shitty job.
What do you consider a shitty job?
Bonds by their very nature are incredibly one way. The fact that a company needs a bond suggests it likely has enough negativity surrounding it's workplace that it needs a financial incentive for an employee to stay.

That being said while playing devils adv. I see the side of the company - even a half decent one seems to need bonds - because 'everyone' nowadays is making a run for the mainlines.

If the top companies were moral - they would do the right thing and terminate the pilots that left their former companies hanging without so much as a sorry. It happens daily and it's the top reason even the best companies that aren't mainline have to bond everyone.

I've heard of guys bouncing between Jazz and Sunwing like a pinball. Pilots who started training only to not show up for the ride because Encor'Ter called. A week into line indoc and AC calls - peace!

Those are the pilots that ruin it for everyone.

S.
---------- ADS -----------
  

C.W.E.
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1187
Joined: Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:22 pm

Re: labour lawyer recommendation

Post by C.W.E. » Fri Jan 26, 2018 7:22 pm

Those are the pilots that ruin it for everyone.
And that is why there are bonds.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Black_Tusk
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 693
Joined: Sun Oct 09, 2016 8:57 am

Re: labour lawyer recommendation

Post by Black_Tusk » Fri Jan 26, 2018 7:46 pm

Blueontop wrote:
Fri Jan 26, 2018 6:20 pm
Why is it expected that us employees are supposed to be noble and play nice but when as soon as it suits the company to drop said employee because of economics, its suddenly ok for the company to do whatever for its bottom line. Company has no real loyalty to employees yet the employees better honour a contract that the company would walk out on itself if it benefited it

Or worse yet, when the company and owner makes you (or attempts to make you) break the law and if you want to quit you're on the hook for a bond. IMO, if the company forces anyone to do anything illegal, bonds should be invalid at that second. Contracts work from both ends.
---------- ADS -----------
  

172_Captain
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 75
Joined: Thu Mar 27, 2014 8:16 pm

Re: labour lawyer recommendation

Post by 172_Captain » Tue Jan 30, 2018 1:02 am

The nature of bonds are quite simple and straight forward. There's really only three elements to a bond, as it's a contract between the employee and the employer. You can agree or disagree with bonds, but the fact is the employee and employer have entered a legally binding contract and if broken there are consequences. For a contract to be valid it needs to satisfy the following parts:

Offer
Acceptance
Consideration

Company A offers a job plus all training costs.
The prospective employee reads the contract and provisions and decides to accept the offer.
Both parties provide something of value to each other (the employer extends a employment and paid training, the employee offers their skill-set to the employer for a term specified in the agreement). Therefore, consideration has been met.

All the provisions for a legally binding contract are in place.
Why is it expected that us employees are supposed to be noble and play nice but when as soon as it suits the company to drop said employee because of economics, its suddenly ok for the company to do whatever for its bottom line. Company has no real loyalty to employees yet the employees better honour a contract that the company would walk out on itself if it benefited it
Not entirely accurate. Both parties have to play nice. If an employer lays you off, they don't hold you to the bond. The bond is null and void at this point. Also, employers can't just lay you off. You're required a certain amount of notice, or pay in lieu. Contracted employees might work differently.
Stop signing/agreeing to bonds for god sakes people, the shoe is on the other foot as far as experienced pilots are concerned and training is a cost of doing business. No bond no need for a lawyer to leave a shitty job.
The problem is many of the upcoming pilot don't have experience so they don't really have a leg to stand on when it comes to negotiating. Bonds don't equate to a shitty job or shitty operator. That's a really outdated view of things IMO. The number of people I've seen come through and quit during ground school, or quit a few weeks to months into the job has been steadily increasing. Just as it has with every other operator as of late. Are all these employers getting shittier by the day, or is it more likely people are jumping ship because they'd rather fly an aircraft that has a big red maple leaf stamped on it, or a teal stripe running along it's body?
---------- ADS -----------
  

Loner
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 119
Joined: Mon Aug 28, 2017 1:14 pm

Re: labour lawyer recommendation

Post by Loner » Tue Jan 30, 2018 4:37 am

---------- ADS -----------
  

letsfly
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 49
Joined: Fri Feb 04, 2011 7:01 am

Re: labour lawyer recommendation

Post by letsfly » Fri Feb 09, 2018 6:11 am

Any reputable company today that recognizes the need for quality pilots will pay a bonus to have you instead of asking for training bonds.
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
Jack Klumpus
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 341
Joined: Fri Jan 29, 2010 4:46 pm
Location: In a van down by the river.

Re: labour lawyer recommendation

Post by Jack Klumpus » Fri Feb 09, 2018 6:36 am

Which ever law firm you deal with bebupfrint and get them to agree on the price of their services upfront. I've dealt with a lawyer in Winnipeg with regards to a training bond, even though we settled to pay much less than what the company wanted, the lawyer was trying to milk me for everything, including photocopies and envelopes. And this was the 'best' lawyer in Winnipeg. My saving grace was that I had agreed on a price before hand.

Before the audience here jumps all over me, I quit my job due to the company's continued failure to keep the airplanes safe. Company was later shut down by TC.
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
Bede
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 3082
Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2004 5:52 am

Re: labour lawyer recommendation

Post by Bede » Fri Feb 09, 2018 8:21 am

I'm not a lawyer but I'm well versed in the case law re training bonds.

Summary: you need to pay them. You're not going to get out of it plus you'll pay court costs.
---------- ADS -----------
  

JBI
Rank 8
Rank 8
Posts: 858
Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2004 11:21 am
Location: YYZ / LGA

Re: labour lawyer recommendation

Post by JBI » Fri Feb 09, 2018 9:46 am

Generally speaking, Bede is correct.

However, feel free to send me a message and we can have a (free) chat. Though I'm not associated with any firm, I've switched back my law society membership to practising status so can provide advice.

For what it's worth, I wrote an article in Skies Magazine a couple years ago on the legality of Training Bonds. https://www.skiesmag.com/news/breaking- ... contracts/ (not sure why my name is no longer on the headnote).
Jack Klumpus wrote:
Fri Feb 09, 2018 6:36 am
Which ever law firm you deal with bebupfrint and get them to agree on the price of their services upfront. I've dealt with a lawyer in Winnipeg with regards to a training bond, even though we settled to pay much less than what the company wanted, the lawyer was trying to milk me for everything, including photocopies and envelopes. And this was the 'best' lawyer in Winnipeg. My saving grace was that I had agreed on a price before hand.
Charging for disbursements (i.e. photocopies and envelopes etc.) is pretty standard billing practice by all law firms. When I was working at a firm I thought it was pretty silly - the client is already paying hundreds of dollars an hour for legal representation, that should at least also include stationary. However, that was the firm's policy so that's what I had to bill. The lawyer wasn't trying to 'milk' you, just following standard billing.
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
HansDietrich
Rank 6
Rank 6
Posts: 453
Joined: Sun Feb 07, 2016 9:33 am

Re: labour lawyer recommendation

Post by HansDietrich » Sat Feb 10, 2018 3:52 pm

Pff... I know many people that skipped on their bond and nothing happened, aside from some "useless threatening letters". Those bonds are good for the outhouse.

Just ignore it. It will go away... No company in their right mind will spend 20K on a lawyer to get their 10K back. Also, even if, absurdly, you get taken to court, what judge do you think will side with the company? One step further; even if you're told to pay the bond back, you can say "Sorry I don't have the money. I'll pay back $25 a month for the next 50 years"... These guys know this and they won't do jack sh*t. No 703 will take you to court for not paying an "illegal" bond.
---------- ADS -----------
  
Das ist mir wurst...

JBI
Rank 8
Rank 8
Posts: 858
Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2004 11:21 am
Location: YYZ / LGA

Re: labour lawyer recommendation

Post by JBI » Sat Feb 10, 2018 4:28 pm

HansDietrich wrote:
Sat Feb 10, 2018 3:52 pm
Pff... I know many people that skipped on their bond and nothing happened, aside from some "useless threatening letters". Those bonds are good for the outhouse.

Just ignore it. It will go away... No company in their right mind will spend 20K on a lawyer to get their 10K back. Also, even if, absurdly, you get taken to court, what judge do you think will side with the company? One step further; even if you're told to pay the bond back, you can say "Sorry I don't have the money. I'll pay back $25 a month for the next 50 years"... These guys know this and they won't do jack sh*t. No 703 will take you to court for not paying an "illegal" bond.
I'm trying to figure out if your post is sarcasm or ignorance. Did you read my article that I posted just two posts above? There are plenty of decisions where the judge sides with the company. And while you may have not have money now, do you want a judgement rendered against you on the system when you go to apply for a mortgage? While going after a bond will always be an economic as well as business decision by an operator, starting from the position of "no, I'll never have to pay this" is a very poor approach indeed.

Bede has some pretty extensive education and is extremely adept on legal issues. I am a lawyer and previously practiced aviation law. It seems it is all for naught though as you obviously know better.
---------- ADS -----------
  
Last edited by JBI on Sat Feb 10, 2018 6:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Diadem
Rank 8
Rank 8
Posts: 897
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:16 pm
Location: A sigma left of the top of the bell curve

Re: labour lawyer recommendation

Post by Diadem » Sat Feb 10, 2018 4:42 pm

HansDietrich wrote:
Sat Feb 10, 2018 3:52 pm
No company in their right mind will spend 20K on a lawyer to get their 10K back.
I used to work for a company that would gladly spend $100000 to get $1 from a pilot skipping out on his/her bond. It's about the principle, not the money, and they want to send a message that no one gets away with it so others won't start bailing too. They succeeded every time they went to court that I know of too.
---------- ADS -----------
  

C.W.E.
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1187
Joined: Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:22 pm

Re: labour lawyer recommendation

Post by C.W.E. » Sat Feb 10, 2018 4:51 pm

I'm trying to figure out if your post is sarcasm or ignorance.
Ignorance.
---------- ADS -----------
  

C.W.E.
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1187
Joined: Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:22 pm

Re: labour lawyer recommendation

Post by C.W.E. » Sat Feb 10, 2018 4:53 pm

I'm trying to figure out if your post is sarcasm or ignorance.
Ignorance.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Loner
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 119
Joined: Mon Aug 28, 2017 1:14 pm

Re: labour lawyer recommendation

Post by Loner » Sat Feb 10, 2018 7:55 pm

Don’t sign anything you don’t plan in honoring.
Nobody forces you to agree. But...if you sign and agree to the terms, ethics, ethics, ethics or pay.
It’s no different than a pre-nuptial agreement, rules are known from the get go.
You can't have your cake and eat it
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
oldncold
Rank 8
Rank 8
Posts: 845
Joined: Thu May 13, 2004 11:17 am
Location: north of 49N latitude south of 78N lat

Re: labour lawyer recommendation

Post by oldncold » Sun Feb 11, 2018 3:13 am

Ask your company to give you tax receipt for reimbursing the balance on the bond . if they will then great pay the balance then you can deduct off your income. If company will not issue tax receipt for training ,then you are likely not required to repay it as the company is deducting training costs on the corporate balance sheet . and cra wont allow the corporation to deduct on the front end then have former employees deduct on the back end . (double dipping as an expression) many do not know this .
---------- ADS -----------
  

Post Reply

Return to “Employment Forum”