Is it worth it anymore? ( salaries ?)

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marakii
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Is it worth it anymore? ( salaries ?)

#1 Post by marakii » Mon Feb 05, 2018 9:08 am

Man I tell you with all the topics and comments regarding pilot salaries being where they are , so low is it worth it getting into this ?
I know if you're 23 years of age and have the whole world ahead of you with no family at home to take care at the moment maybe you can progress and get somewhere, but older guys that have to step back in getting a pilot salary how many said ' holy crap' what do I do?

Anyone said they want to do it, but seeing what they are going to pay us re-consider the whole thing and just flew for fun or instructed and stayed home?

I'm getting there!

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Re: Is it worth it anymore? ( salaries ?)

#2 Post by montado » Mon Feb 05, 2018 9:57 am

7 years into this industry since my CPL was complete. 5k hours, 3 companies, never made a T4 more than 50k yr, but managed to pay off more than that in student debt. Salary today is about 40k. Now I have the opportunity for a big raise, but circumstances don’t really jive for a poor schedule to do so. I guess I can’t sit here and complain about pay any longer since the opportunity is here to move on up.

What gets me is not so much this industry, as much as the EVERY industry. Pretty much everywhere you look the retiring generation sold out their kids. They are hanging around longer, negotiating higher pay at the expense of lower pay for the new hires. Then they call you entitled and remind you how lucky you are to have this opportunity. They try to convince you the contract they negotiated was with us in mind. Well we never had a vote.

This industry in particular is just ass backwards. Try to keep your head above the water for the first 10 years, so that in your last 10 (if you still have a medical) you can fly a heavy making some big bucks. Kind of dumb to have a contract where you will be responsible for your retirement savings yet you will only be able to afford to save once you reach 45 years old. Ah well I’m sure when I’m 50 I will be a grumpy old fart willing to sell out my kids to better my last years of work.
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Re: Is it worth it anymore? ( salaries ?)

#3 Post by TeePeeCreeper » Mon Feb 05, 2018 10:27 am

montado wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2018 9:57 am
7 years into this industry since my CPL was complete. 5k hours, 3 companies, never made a T4 more than 50k yr, but managed to pay off more than that in student debt. Salary today is about 40k. Now I have the opportunity for a big raise, but circumstances don’t really jive for a poor schedule to do so. I guess I can’t sit here and complain about pay any longer since the opportunity is here to move on up.

What gets me is not so much this industry, as much as the EVERY industry. Pretty much everywhere you look the retiring generation sold out their kids. They are hanging around longer, negotiating higher pay at the expense of lower pay for the new hires. Then they call you entitled and remind you how lucky you are to have this opportunity. They try to convince you the contract they negotiated was with us in mind. Well we never had a vote.

This industry in particular is just ass backwards. Try to keep your head above the water for the first 10 years, so that in your last 10 (if you still have a medical) you can fly a heavy making some big bucks. Kind of dumb to have a contract where you will be responsible for your retirement savings yet you will only be able to afford to save once you reach 45 years old. Ah well I’m sure when I’m 50 I will be a grumpy old fart willing to sell out my kids to better my last years of work.
Spoken like a true Millennial!

TPC
Hums *Money for nothing and chicks for free*
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Re: Is it worth it anymore? ( salaries ?)

#4 Post by SuperchargedRS » Mon Feb 05, 2018 10:56 am

TeePeeCreeper wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2018 10:27 am
montado wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2018 9:57 am
7 years into this industry since my CPL was complete. 5k hours, 3 companies, never made a T4 more than 50k yr, but managed to pay off more than that in student debt. Salary today is about 40k. Now I have the opportunity for a big raise, but circumstances don’t really jive for a poor schedule to do so. I guess I can’t sit here and complain about pay any longer since the opportunity is here to move on up.

What gets me is not so much this industry, as much as the EVERY industry. Pretty much everywhere you look the retiring generation sold out their kids. They are hanging around longer, negotiating higher pay at the expense of lower pay for the new hires. Then they call you entitled and remind you how lucky you are to have this opportunity. They try to convince you the contract they negotiated was with us in mind. Well we never had a vote.

This industry in particular is just ass backwards. Try to keep your head above the water for the first 10 years, so that in your last 10 (if you still have a medical) you can fly a heavy making some big bucks. Kind of dumb to have a contract where you will be responsible for your retirement savings yet you will only be able to afford to save once you reach 45 years old. Ah well I’m sure when I’m 50 I will be a grumpy old fart willing to sell out my kids to better my last years of work.
Spoken like a true Millennial!

TPC
Hums *Money for nothing and chicks for free*
Spoken like a true sucker.

I've been in the industry a hair longer than that guy, I make well over double what he makes, but he does also make a good point.

People are soooo silly on some of this stuff, I mean work for crap, have a bad QOL when you're young and able to do all the fun stuff, for the promise of good pay by the time your old, fat, can't do a wheelie on a Ducati, can't pull the 10s and keep them going all night, don't have the endurance for the night life and then to go rock climbing or jumping in the morning. Seems quite backazzwards to me.


But to the OPs statement, lots of money to be made in most industries, aviation included, just got to find a facet that's underserved and offer a service that's needed. I've always done the more oddball flying and it's treated me quite well.

Problem with trying to follow the flock is its all a numbers game, and some times it just ain't your number.
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Re: Is it worth it anymore? ( salaries ?)

#5 Post by fish4life » Mon Feb 05, 2018 11:27 am

montado wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2018 9:57 am
7 years into this industry since my CPL was complete. 5k hours, 3 companies, never made a T4 more than 50k yr, but managed to pay off more than that in student debt. Salary today is about 40k. Now I have the opportunity for a big raise, but circumstances don’t really jive for a poor schedule to do so. I guess I can’t sit here and complain about pay any longer since the opportunity is here to move on up.

What gets me is not so much this industry, as much as the EVERY industry. Pretty much everywhere you look the retiring generation sold out their kids. They are hanging around longer, negotiating higher pay at the expense of lower pay for the new hires. Then they call you entitled and remind you how lucky you are to have this opportunity. They try to convince you the contract they negotiated was with us in mind. Well we never had a vote.

This industry in particular is just ass backwards. Try to keep your head above the water for the first 10 years, so that in your last 10 (if you still have a medical) you can fly a heavy making some big bucks. Kind of dumb to have a contract where you will be responsible for your retirement savings yet you will only be able to afford to save once you reach 45 years old. Ah well I’m sure when I’m 50 I will be a grumpy old fart willing to sell out my kids to better my last years of work.
It all depends where you work, I only had one year where I made under 50k in my first 10 flying commercially and it was my first year. In fact I made over 80k more years than I’ve made under 80k and I’ve never been one to work tons of OT or shitty schedules. If you compare wage alone to friends I’ve grown up with, all of them have careers not jobs and the first 10 years of work I probably have made the most money.
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Re: Is it worth it anymore? ( salaries ?)

#6 Post by Roar » Mon Feb 05, 2018 2:35 pm

montado wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2018 9:57 am
7 years into this industry since my CPL was complete. 5k hours, 3 companies, never made a T4 more than 50k yr, but managed to pay off more than that in student debt. Salary today is about 40k. Now I have the opportunity for a big raise, but circumstances don’t really jive for a poor schedule to do so. I guess I can’t sit here and complain about pay any longer since the opportunity is here to move on up.

What gets me is not so much this industry, as much as the EVERY industry. Pretty much everywhere you look the retiring generation sold out their kids. They are hanging around longer, negotiating higher pay at the expense of lower pay for the new hires. Then they call you entitled and remind you how lucky you are to have this opportunity. They try to convince you the contract they negotiated was with us in mind. Well we never had a vote.

This industry in particular is just ass backwards. Try to keep your head above the water for the first 10 years, so that in your last 10 (if you still have a medical) you can fly a heavy making some big bucks. Kind of dumb to have a contract where you will be responsible for your retirement savings yet you will only be able to afford to save once you reach 45 years old. Ah well I’m sure when I’m 50 I will be a grumpy old fart willing to sell out my kids to better my last years of work.
After 7 years, you’re only making 40k, you’ve screwed up big time. Don’t blame the older guys or the Industy, look squarely in the mirror.
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Re: Is it worth it anymore? ( salaries ?)

#7 Post by montado » Mon Feb 05, 2018 2:56 pm

Roar wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2018 2:35 pm
After 7 years, you’re only making 40k, you’ve screwed up big time. Don’t blame the older guys or the Industy, look squarely in the mirror.
Could not agree more. Made some life choices that put a damper on career. You know, like having kids, getting married. Career is not as versatile, obviously I cant just pick up and go as a please. :lol: I thought I said that my salary was my fault, because I have had many opportunities for higher pay, however just did not function with my life at the time. Anyways now that I rehashed my point again the focus of my post was time value of money and how this industry just has it all backwards, at least here in Canada. I wish I was able to throw more money in investments and solidify a retirement plan that does not entail: Work as much overtime as I can when I'm 55 on a T7 to make up for the lost years when I started my career. Who said it best on here a few months ago? "1.5 x Nothing is still nothing". Dont know why anyone who's a "B" scaler or at one of the regional's at the bottom of the pay grade would waste time coming in to do OT.
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Re: Is it worth it anymore? ( salaries ?)

#8 Post by North Shore » Mon Feb 05, 2018 3:07 pm

Here you go, Montado: viewtopic.php?f=7&t=122463&sid=e92a9262 ... e87ecb8468
2/2 sched, pays reasonably (although, you will work for it) and rumour has it, they'll fly you from your home to your base...
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Re: Is it worth it anymore? ( salaries ?)

#9 Post by ant_321 » Mon Feb 05, 2018 5:40 pm

montado wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2018 9:57 am
7 years into this industry since my CPL was complete. 5k hours, 3 companies, never made a T4 more than 50k yr, but managed to pay off more than that in student debt. Salary today is about 40k. Now I have the opportunity for a big raise, but circumstances don’t really jive for a poor schedule to do so. I guess I can’t sit here and complain about pay any longer since the opportunity is here to move on up.

What gets me is not so much this industry, as much as the EVERY industry. Pretty much everywhere you look the retiring generation sold out their kids. They are hanging around longer, negotiating higher pay at the expense of lower pay for the new hires. Then they call you entitled and remind you how lucky you are to have this opportunity. They try to convince you the contract they negotiated was with us in mind. Well we never had a vote.

This industry in particular is just ass backwards. Try to keep your head above the water for the first 10 years, so that in your last 10 (if you still have a medical) you can fly a heavy making some big bucks. Kind of dumb to have a contract where you will be responsible for your retirement savings yet you will only be able to afford to save once you reach 45 years old. Ah well I’m sure when I’m 50 I will be a grumpy old fart willing to sell out my kids to better my last years of work.
😲
I made 55k in my 3rd year and broke 100k in my 5th year.
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Re: Is it worth it anymore? ( salaries ?)

#10 Post by montado » Mon Feb 05, 2018 6:07 pm

Well what an eye opener. All these threads complaining about pay and I really am a sucker. I thought I should just keep my head low, everyone is going through the same challenges. Little did I know I have been a pawn, a sucker, and really the pay is pretty fantastic. Time for me to go to swoop, I don’t see what the issue is and the need for all these threads about pilot pay. :rolleyes:
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Re: Is it worth it anymore? ( salaries ?)

#11 Post by JohnnyHotRocks » Mon Feb 05, 2018 6:22 pm

montado wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2018 6:07 pm
Well what an eye opener. All these threads complaining about pay and I really am a sucker. I thought I should just keep my head low, everyone is going through the same challenges. Little did I know I have been a pawn, a sucker, and really the pay is pretty fantastic. Time for me to go to swoop, I don’t see what the issue is and the need for all these threads about pilot pay. :rolleyes:
That is pretty funny. You are correct. Many threads on poor pay, yadda yadda yadda, but when YOU complain about your poor pay, somehow it is your fault. YOU must have screwed up somewhere!
And this is why there will never be pilot unity, a college of pilots or anything of that nature.
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Re: Is it worth it anymore? ( salaries ?)

#12 Post by Black_Tusk » Mon Feb 05, 2018 6:49 pm

Three years of busting my ass from the end of flight school to 705 Captain, and with that decent pay and OK lifestyle which will only get better.

Certainly more than any of my peers in other fields who have years more education than I do. They also work a lot more. It's not 2004 anymore. If your goals are to fly at the airlines there's nothing stopping you from meeting that within a few years.

Anyone who complains or "can't" make it in this pilots market has no one to blame but themselves.
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Re: Is it worth it anymore? ( salaries ?)

#13 Post by C.W.E. » Mon Feb 05, 2018 7:23 pm

If you compare driving a truck to flying an airplane a truck driver makes between $35,000 and $71,000 in Canada.
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Re: Is it worth it anymore? ( salaries ?)

#14 Post by Anon1234 » Mon Feb 05, 2018 7:40 pm

montado wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2018 6:07 pm
Well what an eye opener. All these threads complaining about pay and I really am a sucker. I thought I should just keep my head low, everyone is going through the same challenges. Little did I know I have been a pawn, a sucker, and really the pay is pretty fantastic. Time for me to go to swoop, I don’t see what the issue is and the need for all these threads about pilot pay. :rolleyes:
Damned if you do / Damned if you don't.

Seriously. Welcome to AvCanada! Where no matter what choices you make or opinions you offer: you %$@#'d up and are labelled an idiot by the all powerful Aviation demi-gods. I appreciate your views and what you offered (even if it meant sticking your neck out a bit).
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Re: Is it worth it anymore? ( salaries ?)

#15 Post by Black_Tusk » Mon Feb 05, 2018 7:46 pm

C.W.E. wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2018 7:23 pm
If you compare driving a truck to flying an airplane a truck driver makes between $35,000 and $71,000 in Canada.
Yeah... But I don't want to drive a truck.

You can compare to other jobs all day long but if any of us didn't want to fly we wouldn't.
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Re: Is it worth it anymore? ( salaries ?)

#16 Post by C.W.E. » Mon Feb 05, 2018 8:35 pm

Yeah... But I don't want to drive a truck.

I was only making a comparison in wages, not suggesting what you should do.

The difference between pilots and truck drivers is a lot of pilots will work for really low wages because they allow emotion to rule their decision making.

Having worked at both jobs I found flying more satisfying and by choosing the kind of flying I did it also paid more than driving a truck.
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Re: Is it worth it anymore? ( salaries ?)

#17 Post by sstaurus » Tue Feb 06, 2018 7:50 am

Trucks vs Planes. Which will be atonomous first? Don't forget needing to have a backup plan in this industry... also LOL at 'busted your ass' for 3 whole years to get to 705 captain. We're all lucky to be riding the crest of the economy right now.
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Re: Is it worth it anymore? ( salaries ?)

#18 Post by Tanker299 » Tue Feb 06, 2018 8:06 am

3 years busting my ass to 705 captain, that's the entitlement we are dealing with. It used to be 2-3 years to get an FO slot on a king air and the likes. I would bet a 705 Captain used to 5-10 years, 5 years you were not likely flying for a major 705 either. Yes the starting salaries are low but 3 years to Jazz Captain. The left seat pay is not as good but it still beats the 5-7 years you rode the right seat plus the 2-5 years you busted you but off in some shit hole on Shit planes making shit money and possibly locked in by bonds. No it's not great but pilots are making more money faster then they did before.
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Re: Is it worth it anymore? ( salaries ?)

#19 Post by Black_Tusk » Tue Feb 06, 2018 8:46 am

That's what I'm trying to say. The OP wondered if it's worth it. I'm trying to say yes it is because things are moving a lot faster than they used to. I in no way feel entitled to this job, when I started I fully expected it to take 5-10 years to get to a regional. I can't complain though that things went a lot faster and know that I'm quite lucky to have joined the industry at the time I did.
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Re: Is it worth it anymore? ( salaries ?)

#20 Post by SuperchargedRS » Tue Feb 06, 2018 10:01 am

For one comparing flying a plane to driving a truck is about the same as comparing plumbing a bathroom to performing vascular surgery.

And for this entitled bit, not sure that's the right word, I mean it's very much a inferiority complex inducing way to saying it, but I wouldn't use the work "entitled" as much as I would say "expect".

And rightfully so, a experienced pilot should rightfully expect to make a GOOD (not just livable) living. I'd wager most of the drooling masses would agree.
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Re: Is it worth it anymore? ( salaries ?)

#21 Post by Black_Tusk » Tue Feb 06, 2018 11:17 am

If you want to be successful in this industry, you need to do more than sit at home and wait for a phone call. Hitting the road, making connections and networking is by far the best way to progress yourself in this job. Every job interview I've ever had was thanks to a connection.
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Re: Is it worth it anymore? ( salaries ?)

#22 Post by Tanker299 » Tue Feb 06, 2018 11:29 am

Your right that may infer that. I personally never enjoyed flying a bus. I hated the terminal even more and commuting with a crash pad... F that ( living with a bunch of old men on there 2nd or 3rd wife jumping into little bunk beds and not cleaning up after themselves was great picture of the future that may lay ahead). The only way I could go back is if my pairing could start in my home city and end there. Even if it was deadheads both ways. Personally would rather not be forced to do transboder, never had a problem but America scares me right now. Overcrowded dirty buildings where people lose there ability to be civil. You can feel the tension and hotels.... my bed is way better.

Is it worth it compared to years ago. Absolutely and if you like the lifestyle you can have a long career. Not many young people getting out of school can get a job they could be at for 40 years. Really have not seen this since the 70s when CP air hired right out of schools. I got to meet a few of those guys on my travels and for most it was not worth it, 40 years is a long time to be at one place. Some would just show up at the float bases after retiring and want a job. But being 50-60 years old they could not do the manual labour required or would be unwilling. But were quick to say this is awesome flying don't give it up to quickly if at all.

Would I like the opportunity to have been able to use this system how it is, yes. This is where I feel the real opportunity lies. Get some supervised time, build a base of skills then move over into a single pilot gig in a light aircraft going to remote places or some two crew gravel op. Have a leg to stand on when you get there. Not saying you won't have to do some extra duties but you might not have to do the washes the bosses car or baby sit the kids type BS work. If you find a place that give you a good lifestyle then you stay and if not you can go back to the 705 world with a deeper well of knowledge and experience. Then when you retire you don't need to be like what if I had tried that. I'm glad I dipped my toe into the airline sea but it was just not for me.
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Re: Is it worth it anymore? ( salaries ?)

#23 Post by Maynard » Tue Feb 06, 2018 12:46 pm

Montado, where in the Country do you work? I'm not saying you screwed up, or did anything wrong, but 7 years and making 40k, somethings up.
7 Years, depending on progression should have you in the left seat of a 704, or at least driving a caravan single pilot if the airline wasn't/isn't your gig. Most Metro/1900/kingair/pilatus captains start around 55-60K, Caravan around 60K. Even left seat Navajo would have to make more than 40? (i hope?) I also gave up pay for lifestyle, 3 kids later, and I never made less than 40k for more than 1 or 2 years... (passing an upgrade to keep the schedule for said kids...)
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Re: Is it worth it anymore? ( salaries ?)

#24 Post by fish4life » Wed Feb 07, 2018 10:24 pm

With how much the stock market has fluctuated this week I’d say no one knows. Another financial recession could lead to 2 years of no one hiring
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