Instructor Pay

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7ECA
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Instructor Pay

#1 Post by 7ECA » Fri Jul 06, 2018 3:02 pm

Nice to see schools moving to salaried positions for instructors...

Oh hang on a minute, that's just another way to screw Class 4s around.

Take for example the latest offer from a certain training "institution". $18,750 salary - works out to a whopping $9.375/hour, just a little bit shy of the current minimum wage in Alberta of $13.60... :smt014 According to Statistics Canada, the so-called "Low Income Measure" for a single adult with no children is $20,137. Nothing like being a professional with post secondary education and living below the poverty line.


A minimum wage worker in Alberta (assuming they work full time, and the "standard" 50 weeks a year) will gross $27,200.

Now, the minimum wage is set to increase to $15/hour on 1 October 2018 - meaning this fine bit of remuneration will be even further from any semblance of a decent wage. Give me a friggin' break people.

The minimum wage worker after 1 October 2018 will then gross $30,000 in a year.
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Last edited by 7ECA on Sat Jul 07, 2018 10:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Instructor Pay

#2 Post by FL007 » Fri Jul 06, 2018 3:14 pm

7ECA wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 3:02 pm
Nice to see schools moving to salaried positions for instructors...

Oh hang on a minute, that's just another way to screw Class 4s around.

Take for example the latest offer from a certain training "institution". $18,750 salary - works out to a whopping $9.375/hour, just a little bit shy of the current minimum wage in Alberta of $13.60... :smt014 According to Statistics Canada, the so-called "Low Income Measure" for a single adult with no children is $20,137. Nothing like being a professional with post secondary education and living below the poverty line.


A minimum wage worker in Alberta (assuming they work full time, and the "standard" 50 weeks a year) will gross $27,200.

Now, the minimum wage is set to increase to $15/hour on 1 October 2018 - meaning this fine bit of renumeration will be even further from any semblance of a decent wage. Give me a friggin' break people.

The minimum wage worker after 1 October 2018 will then gross $30,000 in a year.
It's embarrassing for sure that any company would pay this don't get me wrong, but it's more embarrassing that this company doesn't have 0 instructors because people refuse to undervalue themselves.

Don't work at these companies, make them starve for instructors and see what they'll start paying.

You think Porter paid triple overtime last summer in goodwill?
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Re: Instructor Pay

#3 Post by JohnnyHotRocks » Fri Jul 06, 2018 8:45 pm

Remuneration
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Re: Instructor Pay

#4 Post by lownslow » Sat Jul 07, 2018 6:55 am

When I got my first instructing job ten years ago (almost to the day, now that I think about it) at a little mom-and-pop shop I had a base rate higher than that. This was back when instructors were a dime a dozen.
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Re: Instructor Pay

#5 Post by 7ECA » Sat Jul 07, 2018 10:29 am

JohnnyHotRocks wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 8:45 pm
Remuneration
Pardon me, Sir.

Edited, as required. :goodman:
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Re: Instructor Pay

#6 Post by JohnnyHotRocks » Sat Jul 07, 2018 2:36 pm

Lol I have been saying it wrong for decades
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Re: Instructor Pay

#7 Post by 7ECA » Sat Jul 07, 2018 4:05 pm

Of interest would be the fact that the Federal Minimum Wage, is the same as the Provincial Minimum Wage - meaning that even in industries under Federal jurisdiction like aviation, employers must pay all employees no less than the provincial minimum.

So how can this school or any other, justify paying an hourly wage or salary less than what is legal?
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Re: Instructor Pay

#8 Post by digits_ » Sat Jul 07, 2018 4:34 pm

7ECA wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 4:05 pm
So how can this school or any other, justify paying an hourly wage or salary less than what is legal?
1) Because nobody complaints
2) (I disagree with the following, but that's how some schools explain it) Instructors only "work" while flying or ground instructing. They'll be above minimum wage when you calculate it by flight/instructing time. Ridiculous.
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Re: Instructor Pay

#9 Post by Cat Driver » Sat Jul 07, 2018 6:14 pm

It's assbackwards.

Those who teach should be paid more than other pilots, not less.
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Re: Instructor Pay

#10 Post by 7ECA » Sat Jul 07, 2018 6:55 pm

digits_ wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 4:34 pm
They'll be above minimum wage when you calculate it by flight/instructing time. Ridiculous.
Actually, one should really calculate this by the duty day of the instructor. Knowing most flight schools, CARS max. wouldn't be far off...

So working 14 hour days, five days a week (although places like this probably make these poor bastards work six days a week); is a grand total of $5.357/hour. :roll:

Not that I'd condone it, but at least if they paid the provincial minimum hourly wage you'd end up with $47,600 gross over that brutal work year.
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Re: Instructor Pay

#11 Post by leftoftrack » Mon Jul 09, 2018 10:17 am

And what CARs duty times do instructors have to abide by?
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Re: Instructor Pay

#12 Post by FL007 » Mon Jul 09, 2018 12:07 pm

leftoftrack wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 10:17 am
And what CARs duty times do instructors have to abide by?
Well as soon as you first show up for work your day has started towards a maximum of 14hrs.

Split duty days have to be expressly agreed upon beforehand so that can't fly.

Duty time would be the limiting factor, with 36hrs off in any 3 consecutive 12hr days, I guess too.

No instructor would touch the 60hr in 7 day time.
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Re: Instructor Pay

#13 Post by ant_321 » Mon Jul 09, 2018 12:55 pm

FL007 wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 12:07 pm
leftoftrack wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 10:17 am
And what CARs duty times do instructors have to abide by?
Well as soon as you first show up for work your day has started towards a maximum of 14hrs.

Split duty days have to be expressly agreed upon beforehand so that can't fly.

Duty time would be the limiting factor, with 36hrs off in any 3 consecutive 12hr days, I guess too.

No instructor would touch the 60hr in 7 day time.
Did I miss some CAR's changes? I thought flight instructors weren't restricted with duty time limits. They certainly weren't when I was an instructor.
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Re: Instructor Pay

#14 Post by FL007 » Mon Jul 09, 2018 1:02 pm

ant_321 wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 12:55 pm
FL007 wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 12:07 pm
leftoftrack wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 10:17 am
And what CARs duty times do instructors have to abide by?
Well as soon as you first show up for work your day has started towards a maximum of 14hrs.

Split duty days have to be expressly agreed upon beforehand so that can't fly.

Duty time would be the limiting factor, with 36hrs off in any 3 consecutive 12hr days, I guess too.

No instructor would touch the 60hr in 7 day time.
Did I miss some CAR's changes? I thought flight instructors weren't restricted with duty time limits. They certainly weren't when I was an instructor.
No commercial pilot in Canada can fly longer than a 14hr day unless they go unforeseen. Including flight instructors. Hourly limits wouldn't be the limiting factor for flight instructor, because they fly more sporadically, however if you show up for a flight at 5am, you can't fly at 10pm, unless you've had rest.

Edit: I understand maybe the norm in flight instructing is very random, spread out days that seem like they don't follow Canadian regulation, however I think this was just the atmosphere in flight instruction.

If you want to be technical, flight instructors probably get by this with split days, however again, split days must be agreed upon beforehand and rest needs to happen in the between time, but we all know this isn't the case with FIs.
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Re: Instructor Pay

#15 Post by digits_ » Mon Jul 09, 2018 1:20 pm

FL007 wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 1:02 pm
ant_321 wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 12:55 pm
FL007 wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 12:07 pm


Well as soon as you first show up for work your day has started towards a maximum of 14hrs.

Split duty days have to be expressly agreed upon beforehand so that can't fly.

Duty time would be the limiting factor, with 36hrs off in any 3 consecutive 12hr days, I guess too.

No instructor would touch the 60hr in 7 day time.
Did I miss some CAR's changes? I thought flight instructors weren't restricted with duty time limits. They certainly weren't when I was an instructor.
No commercial pilot in Canada can fly longer than a 14hr day unless they go unforeseen. Including flight instructors. Hourly limits wouldn't be the limiting factor for flight instructor, because they fly more sporadically, however if you show up for a flight at 5am, you can't fly at 10pm, unless you've had rest.

Edit: I understand maybe the norm in flight instructing is very random, spread out days that seem like they don't follow Canadian regulation, however I think this was just the atmosphere in flight instruction.

If you want to be technical, flight instructors probably get by this with split days, however again, split days must be agreed upon beforehand and rest needs to happen in the between time, but we all know this isn't the case with FIs.
Do you have a CAR reference? Every CAR that starts with 7xx is generally not applicable for flight training.
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Re: Instructor Pay

#16 Post by photofly » Mon Jul 09, 2018 3:35 pm

Flight instructor hours are not limited, in Canada.
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Re: Instructor Pay

#17 Post by FL007 » Mon Jul 09, 2018 4:06 pm

I don't know, I think it's debatable.

In the CARS standards the only exemption to these rules is dhc6 and helicopters, however they are pretty clear:

(1) Where the flight is conducted under Subpart 2 or 3 of Part VII of the Canadian Aviation Regulations or with a deHavilland DHC-6 aircraft not conducting a scheduled passenger service or with a helicopter not conducting a scheduled passenger service or heli-logging, for any 6 non-overlapping periods of 30 consecutive days within a 365 consecutive day period, the maximum flight time in ANYaircraft shall not exceed:
(amended 1998/03/23; previous version)

(a) where the flight crew member conducts single-pilot IFR operations, 8 hours in any 24 consecutive hours;

(b) 60 hours in any 7 consecutive days;

(c) 150 hours in any 30 consecutive days;

(d) 210 hours in any 42 consecutive days;
(amended 1998/03/23; previous version)

(e) 450 hours in any 90 consecutive days;
(amended 1998/03/23; previous version)

(f) 900 hours in any 180 consecutive days;
(amended 1998/03/23; previous version)

(g) the accumulated 30-consecutive day, 42-consecutive day and 90 consecutive day flight times may be reset to zero if the flight crew member is provided with at least 5 consecutive days free from all duty; and
(amended 1998/03/23; previous version)

(h) 1200 hours in any 365 consecutive days.
(amended 1998/03/23; previous version)

(2) For heli-logging operations, the maximum flight time in all flying shall not exceed:

(a) 120 hours in any 30 consecutive days for single-pilot helicopters;

(b) 150 hours in any 30 consecutive days for helicopters operated by two pilots; and

(c) 1,200 hours in any 365 consecutive days.
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Re: Instructor Pay

#18 Post by lownslow » Mon Jul 09, 2018 4:10 pm

FL007 wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 4:06 pm
(1) Where the flight is conducted under Subpart 2 or 3 of Part VII of the Canadian Aviation Regulations...
Is that not saying the quoted reg applies only to 702 and 703? Instructing is neither of those.
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Re: Instructor Pay

#19 Post by FL007 » Mon Jul 09, 2018 4:15 pm

lownslow wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 4:10 pm
FL007 wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 4:06 pm
(1) Where the flight is conducted under Subpart 2 or 3 of Part VII of the Canadian Aviation Regulations...
Is that not saying the quoted reg applies only to 702 and 703? Instructing is neither of those.
True. I didn't realize part 400 didn't have any duty or max time. My mistake, if they're not mandated by tc it must fall under labor board work standards.

Still messed up.
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Re: Instructor Pay

#20 Post by lownslow » Mon Jul 09, 2018 4:37 pm

FL007 wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 4:15 pm
True. I didn't realize part 400 didn't have any duty or max time.
Pretty nutty, isn't it? I worked some looooooong days when I was instructing.
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Re: Instructor Pay

#21 Post by photofly » Mon Jul 09, 2018 4:41 pm

Hours regulations are to protect the public, and protecting one student at a time isn’t anyone’s priority.

The same cannot be said for maintenance requirements though...
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Re: Instructor Pay

#22 Post by ant_321 » Mon Jul 09, 2018 7:11 pm

lownslow wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 4:37 pm
FL007 wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 4:15 pm
True. I didn't realize part 400 didn't have any duty or max time.
Pretty nutty, isn't it? I worked some looooooong days when I was instructing.
I hear ya. One summer I trained Air cadets from sun up to sun down and did night ratings when the cadets left. Averaged 18 hrs a day at work at least 6 days a week. Sometimes 7. I was 19 so I was too stupid to know how stupid I was being. The only concern I had was how it cut down my beer drinking time to 2 nights a week.
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Re: Instructor Pay

#23 Post by TheRealMcCoy » Mon Jul 09, 2018 7:25 pm

ant_321 wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 7:11 pm
I hear ya. One summer I trained Air cadets from sun up to sun down and did night ratings when the cadets left. Averaged 18 hrs a day at work at least 6 days a week. Sometimes 7. I was 19 so I was too stupid to know how stupid I was being. The only concern I had was how it cut down my beer drinking time to 2 nights a week.
The most illegal thing of them all
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Re: Instructor Pay

#24 Post by ant_321 » Mon Jul 09, 2018 7:35 pm

TheRealMcCoy wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 7:25 pm
ant_321 wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 7:11 pm
I hear ya. One summer I trained Air cadets from sun up to sun down and did night ratings when the cadets left. Averaged 18 hrs a day at work at least 6 days a week. Sometimes 7. I was 19 so I was too stupid to know how stupid I was being. The only concern I had was how it cut down my beer drinking time to 2 nights a week.
The most illegal thing of them all
How so? Beers on Saturday night after work (Sunday being the day off) and Sunday evening then back to work Monday morning.
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Re: Instructor Pay

#25 Post by TheRealMcCoy » Tue Jul 10, 2018 5:47 pm

I meant they were cutting in to your beer time, should be illegal to do that.
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