DC-3 / C-46 Ramp Slave

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govida
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Re: DC-3 / C-46 Ramp Slave

Post by govida » Fri Jul 20, 2018 12:23 pm

Hi Cat,

However somehow I did manage to fly a fairly large number of aircraft and did not ever wreck one or kill anyone, especially myself.
Excellent! Do you think a pilot that is trained with all the modern technology and methods can hope to have a spotless record like yours?

Or is this privilege only reserved for pilots that learned with tailwheel and toughed it out on the ramp for a few years?
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Re: DC-3 / C-46 Ramp Slave

Post by Maynard » Fri Jul 20, 2018 8:41 pm

FL007 wrote:
Thu Jul 19, 2018 5:48 pm
TheRealMcCoy wrote:
Thu Jul 19, 2018 5:40 pm
I have yet to sign on the dotted line for a job that didn't say "and other duties as assignment by a supervisor".

Quit your whining.
This is why the industry has this old mentality that is still alive, and fortunately will die off in the next couple of decades.

"Whining" is what you call someone who makes 6 figures in aviation tries to create transparency in a job ad, which young people perhaps will get excited about, only to find that they were bait and switched.

Have you signed on the dotted line for a job where the job title was something different than you applied for? Do you recommend your child or future children do so?

I guess no one here would make a good chief pilot as the last duty is always “...or any other duties assigned by the ops manager...” :lol:
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Re: DC-3 / C-46 Ramp Slave

Post by FL007 » Sat Jul 21, 2018 3:44 am

Maynard wrote:
Fri Jul 20, 2018 8:41 pm
FL007 wrote:
Thu Jul 19, 2018 5:48 pm
TheRealMcCoy wrote:
Thu Jul 19, 2018 5:40 pm
I have yet to sign on the dotted line for a job that didn't say "and other duties as assignment by a supervisor".

Quit your whining.
This is why the industry has this old mentality that is still alive, and fortunately will die off in the next couple of decades.

"Whining" is what you call someone who makes 6 figures in aviation tries to create transparency in a job ad, which young people perhaps will get excited about, only to find that they were bait and switched.

Have you signed on the dotted line for a job where the job title was something different than you applied for? Do you recommend your child or future children do so?

I guess no one here would make a good chief pilot as the last duty is always “...or any other duties assigned by the ops manager...” :lol:
Yes however in this post, you as a pilot are given additional tasks by the ground ops manager.

I don't know about you guys but I don't get additional tasks given to me by the flight attendant manager, or reservation manager, or ground manager at my job.. :roll:
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Re: DC-3 / C-46 Ramp Slave

Post by goingnowherefast » Sat Jul 21, 2018 7:12 am

Chief pilot is also a manager position where they might have to manage parts of the company. A pilot is a pilot where they have to...flight follow? Something seems wrong with that.
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Re: DC-3 / C-46 Ramp Slave

Post by TheRealMcCoy » Sat Jul 21, 2018 2:27 pm

A lot of people here would do very well in a union
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Re: DC-3 / C-46 Ramp Slave

Post by FL007 » Sat Jul 21, 2018 3:15 pm

TheRealMcCoy wrote:
Sat Jul 21, 2018 2:27 pm
A lot of people here would do very well in a union
Ah yes a group of people set on the betterment of their profession who limit under the table deals and targeted managerial attacks. Or, recently as in WestJet's case, protecting future growth and upgrades, as well as maintaining current wages on identical jobs on same types. Horrible.

I sense there's a couple of managers on this forum, questioning why people who spent 100k on education became self aware of their worth.

These duty day regs are going to taste so sweet.
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Re: DC-3 / C-46 Ramp Slave

Post by Cat Driver » Sat Jul 21, 2018 3:44 pm

I sense there's a couple of managers on this forum, questioning why people who spent 100k on education became self aware of their worth.
Does it cost 100k now to become a commercial pilot?

As to their worth that varies from pilot to pilot, but essentially they usually end up getting paid what they are worth to the employer.
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Re: DC-3 / C-46 Ramp Slave

Post by FL007 » Sat Jul 21, 2018 3:48 pm

Cat Driver wrote:
Sat Jul 21, 2018 3:44 pm
I sense there's a couple of managers on this forum, questioning why people who spent 100k on education became self aware of their worth.
Does it cost 100k now to become a commercial pilot?

As to their worth that varies from pilot to pilot, but essentially they usually end up getting paid what they are worth to the employer.
I'd say so, it cost me close to 75k, when you include tuition for college, living expenses and flying. Must have increased since then for sure.
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Re: DC-3 / C-46 Ramp Slave

Post by Cat Driver » Sat Jul 21, 2018 4:01 pm

That is a lot of money to spend to gamble on making a living flying airplanes.

How much more did it cost you to go the college route and would you advise others to go the college route?
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Re: DC-3 / C-46 Ramp Slave

Post by FL007 » Sat Jul 21, 2018 4:11 pm

Cat Driver wrote:
Sat Jul 21, 2018 4:01 pm
That is a lot of money to spend to gamble on making a living flying airplanes.

How much more did it cost you to go the college route and would you advise others to go the college route?
This was probably 10 years ago or so, so take that into consideration.

I'd say it cost me 15k or so more to go through a college, and for me it kept me focused on flying so, where I spent that over 2 years, non stop, if I wasn't in a college program it may have taken 4 if I was casual or part time, costing money in catching up on previous lessons.

As well lots of companies value diplomas focusing on aviation or degrees, regardless of how I feel about degrees or diplomas it definitely helped me get to where I am, and have made back the cost of flight training tenfold.

I'd say if you had to move to a place to do flight training full time non stop and you were motivated you'd probably be looking at 60k or so including living expenses (1k a month easy including rent).
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Re: DC-3 / C-46 Ramp Slave

Post by C.W.E. » Sat Jul 21, 2018 5:03 pm

Thanks for the answers, the world of flying has changed since I started there were no college programs back then.

My first flying job was instructing and one of my first students hired me to fly for their company which was a big grocery chain and from there went into aerial application which was hands down the most enjoyable flying I ever did.

After 13 years in that business I went into bush flying and then to airline flying on the DC3, however I found that to be to boring and in 1964 I was offered a helicopter license for free to work for a company that was starting aerial spraying with helicopters, they needed someone with an Ontario aerial applicators license so I jumped at the chance to fly helicopters.

Anyhow from there I went into fire bombing for 15 years and got tired of that so I started my own flying business and did a lot of interesting stuff over the decades I was self employed and worked for some real interesting companies such as Airbus Industries and French TV1 for a few years and then with Lloyds of London's underwriters among others.

The best flying job I ever had was with Miramax Movies as far as fun and money went.

The worst job was air show flying which I suffered through for eight years before I finally quit flying for a living because I wanted to be home not commuting half way around the world to do a job I detested.

Anyhow all in all it was an interesting way to earn a living and I would probably do it all over again if I were to be reincarnated. :mrgreen:
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Re: DC-3 / C-46 Ramp Slave

Post by TheRealMcCoy » Sat Jul 21, 2018 5:08 pm

FL007 wrote:
Sat Jul 21, 2018 3:15 pm
Ah yes a group of people set on the betterment of their profession who limit under the table deals and targeted managerial attacks. Or, recently as in WestJet's case, protecting future growth and upgrades, as well as maintaining current wages on identical jobs on same types. Horrible.

I sense there's a couple of managers on this forum, questioning why people who spent 100k on education became self aware of their worth.

These duty day regs are going to taste so sweet.
I'm a worker, and i've also been a manager. I have probably (yes i'm assuming but I have a sneaking suspicion i'm right) worked more jobs in more varying career fields than "most" people, so I would say my experience is fairly well rounded.

Every union I have worked in, has had the most unhappy work force, to the point where one place I hated going in because the general vibe of the co workers just made me mad. Most people I have known who work in union; it's a constant bitch fest about management and union rights, union this union that... Not once talking about the fact that they like their job or something cool they've done at work; i'm referencing a conversation I just recently had with an old classmate who just started at Encore.

I spent 100k on my aviation degree (biggest waste of money) and am very knew into my aviation career. So don't misinterpret that i'm some crusty old captain stuck in the old ways. I'm a new worker who's tired of hearing people bitching and whining about everything under the sun.
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Re: DC-3 / C-46 Ramp Slave

Post by FL007 » Sat Jul 21, 2018 5:28 pm

TheRealMcCoy wrote:
Sat Jul 21, 2018 5:08 pm
FL007 wrote:
Sat Jul 21, 2018 3:15 pm
Ah yes a group of people set on the betterment of their profession who limit under the table deals and targeted managerial attacks. Or, recently as in WestJet's case, protecting future growth and upgrades, as well as maintaining current wages on identical jobs on same types. Horrible.

I sense there's a couple of managers on this forum, questioning why people who spent 100k on education became self aware of their worth.

These duty day regs are going to taste so sweet.
I'm a worker, and i've also been a manager. I have probably (yes i'm assuming but I have a sneaking suspicion i'm right) worked more jobs in more varying career fields than "most" people, so I would say my experience is fairly well rounded.

Every union I have worked in, has had the most unhappy work force, to the point where one place I hated going in because the general vibe of the co workers just made me mad. Most people I have known who work in union; it's a constant bitch fest about management and union rights, union this union that... Not once talking about the fact that they like their job or something cool they've done at work; i'm referencing a conversation I just recently had with an old classmate who just started at Encore.


I spent 100k on my aviation degree (biggest waste of money) and am very knew into my aviation career. So don't misinterpret that i'm some crusty old captain stuck in the old ways. I'm a new worker who's tired of hearing people bitching and whining about everything under the sun.
You can't reference conversation with an Encore pilot as a unionized worker because their contract hasn't even started to be negotiated (their union hasn't had the chance to do anything yet) . WestJet pilots have had their union win to defend what was one of the biggest undercutting aviation has seen in a long time. Encore pilots on the other hand have the right to bitch about their management, they're currently worked like dogs.

I have worked in aviation jobs in both unionized and non unionized conditions and I'll tell you right now, I'm not an old crusty captain, I'm not old at all, but 3 or 4 years down the line when you're in a company that isn't unionized and your CP brings you in a room for a decision you made based on safety you'll be wishing you had someone watching your back.

Establishing a union, for example, alpa, across the industry will do nothing but strengthen our contract negotiations across the board as alpa will be consistent with pay/working conditions across similar flying.

Company A won't be able to use company B as a reason to drop wages 10%, or lose pension, days off, etc. Because company B will be represented by a group of pilots with the same ideals as A.

Now, talk about unions in other fields is another story. Unions in some fields can be used as a ticket to call in sick/abuse injuries on the job, etc.
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Re: DC-3 / C-46 Ramp Slave

Post by TheRealMcCoy » Sat Jul 21, 2018 6:26 pm

FL007 wrote:
Sat Jul 21, 2018 5:28 pm
You can't reference conversation with an Encore pilot as a unionized worker because their contract hasn't even started to be negotiated (their union hasn't had the chance to do anything yet) . WestJet pilots have had their union win to defend what was one of the biggest undercutting aviation has seen in a long time. Encore pilots on the other hand have the right to bitch about their management, they're currently worked like dogs.

I have worked in aviation jobs in both unionized and non unionized conditions and I'll tell you right now, I'm not an old crusty captain, I'm not old at all, but 3 or 4 years down the line when you're in a company that isn't unionized and your CP brings you in a room for a decision you made based on safety you'll be wishing you had someone watching your back.

Establishing a union, for example, alpa, across the industry will do nothing but strengthen our contract negotiations across the board as alpa will be consistent with pay/working conditions across similar flying.

Company A won't be able to use company B as a reason to drop wages 10%, or lose pension, days off, etc. Because company B will be represented by a group of pilots with the same ideals as A.

Now, talk about unions in other fields is another story. Unions in some fields can be used as a ticket to call in sick/abuse injuries on the job, etc.
You're splitting hairs there and you know it.

I'm not in a unionized company within my aviation career currently. I dread the day that that happens. I've worked union city work (two different cities), and two different waste companies. All of them sucked, and everything I hear about with AC/Jazz/Encore/WJ; sucks Every time I talked to a friend in the trades; sucks. It's nothing but whine, whine, whine. You don't like the job, find something else it's pretty fucking simple.

We aren't going to see eye to eye, so i'm probably just going to leave it there.
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Re: DC-3 / C-46 Ramp Slave

Post by FL007 » Sat Jul 21, 2018 6:44 pm

TheRealMcCoy wrote:
Sat Jul 21, 2018 6:26 pm
FL007 wrote:
Sat Jul 21, 2018 5:28 pm
You can't reference conversation with an Encore pilot as a unionized worker because their contract hasn't even started to be negotiated (their union hasn't had the chance to do anything yet) . WestJet pilots have had their union win to defend what was one of the biggest undercutting aviation has seen in a long time. Encore pilots on the other hand have the right to bitch about their management, they're currently worked like dogs.

I have worked in aviation jobs in both unionized and non unionized conditions and I'll tell you right now, I'm not an old crusty captain, I'm not old at all, but 3 or 4 years down the line when you're in a company that isn't unionized and your CP brings you in a room for a decision you made based on safety you'll be wishing you had someone watching your back.

Establishing a union, for example, alpa, across the industry will do nothing but strengthen our contract negotiations across the board as alpa will be consistent with pay/working conditions across similar flying.

Company A won't be able to use company B as a reason to drop wages 10%, or lose pension, days off, etc. Because company B will be represented by a group of pilots with the same ideals as A.

Now, talk about unions in other fields is another story. Unions in some fields can be used as a ticket to call in sick/abuse injuries on the job, etc.
You're splitting hairs there and you know it.

I'm not in a unionized company within my aviation career currently. I dread the day that that happens. I've worked union city work (two different cities), and two different waste companies. All of them sucked, and everything I hear about with AC/Jazz/Encore/WJ; sucks Every time I talked to a friend in the trades; sucks. It's nothing but whine, whine, whine. You don't like the job, find something else it's pretty fucking simple.

We aren't going to see eye to eye, so i'm probably just going to leave it there.
Fair we won't see eye to eye but I'm not splitting hairs on saying Encore pilots haven't seen the benefit of a union. They're literally working under the same conditions as before the union until contract negotiations are completed, only after can they partly blame working conditions on the contract they are partly responsible for...
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Re: DC-3 / C-46 Ramp Slave

Post by leftoftrack » Sat Jul 21, 2018 10:48 pm

is the Ontario college program not subsidized? pretty sure those guys and girls are coming out with 75k programs that they paid 25 or 30k for. wish I had someone pay for my license
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Re: DC-3 / C-46 Ramp Slave

Post by shimmydampner » Sun Jul 22, 2018 12:52 am

Oh god. These topics are so nauseating. Especially the part where the snot nosed kids tell an accomplished aviator the way of the world while doing their best to diminish his career. It's hilarious to see the same mushy little cupcakes who would trip over their own undescended testicles for a $37k/yr right seat Q400 job, slag anyone who might be interested to fly a C46 or DC3. What exactly is there to feel proud about at such a job? That you are so lacking in self respect and the capacity for actual work, that you feel it's better to accept poverty wages to "fly" an aircraft that can fly itself rather than improve your hands and feet skills in an aircraft that demands it? To be clear, I don't work for Buffalo and never have, nor have I flown a C46 or DC3, although I wish I had. And, I can't say for sure, but I'll bet Buffalo pays equal or better wages than Jazz or Encore. Let me guess? Jazz or Encore will teach you all about how an FMS and autopilot works and Buffalo won't. Guaranteed they also won't teach you as much about the physical business of flying an airplane as Buffalo will. How about everyone who is well down the path of their effeminate, underachieving airline careers, stop passing judgement on up-and-comers who might be interested in something other than the bland, mind-numbing path that is today's ordinary. After all, it doesn't affect you anyways, so why not the shut the fnck up!? Watch out for the sea-walls, ya pnss!es!
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Re: DC-3 / C-46 Ramp Slave

Post by goingnowherefast » Sun Jul 22, 2018 3:38 am

Because this type of job is back handed and dishonest. They're using flying as a carrot to get cheap labour for the rest of the operation. If they want a part-time pilot part-time dispatch, then call it that. Don't pretend it's full time pilot.

Jazz/Encore have a shit deal too, but at least they're honest.
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Re: DC-3 / C-46 Ramp Slave

Post by FL007 » Sun Jul 22, 2018 5:17 am

shimmydampner wrote:
Sun Jul 22, 2018 12:52 am
Oh god. These topics are so nauseating. Especially the part where the snot nosed kids tell an accomplished aviator the way of the world while doing their best to diminish his career. It's hilarious to see the same mushy little cupcakes who would trip over their own undescended testicles for a $37k/yr right seat Q400 job, slag anyone who might be interested to fly a C46 or DC3. What exactly is there to feel proud about at such a job? That you are so lacking in self respect and the capacity for actual work, that you feel it's better to accept poverty wages to "fly" an aircraft that can fly itself rather than improve your hands and feet skills in an aircraft that demands it? To be clear, I don't work for Buffalo and never have, nor have I flown a C46 or DC3, although I wish I had. And, I can't say for sure, but I'll bet Buffalo pays equal or better wages than Jazz or Encore. Let me guess? Jazz or Encore will teach you all about how an FMS and autopilot works and Buffalo won't. Guaranteed they also won't teach you as much about the physical business of flying an airplane as Buffalo will. How about everyone who is well down the path of their effeminate, underachieving airline careers, stop passing judgement on up-and-comers who might be interested in something other than the bland, mind-numbing path that is today's ordinary. After all, it doesn't affect you anyways, so why not the shut the fnck up!? Watch out for the sea-walls, ya pnss!es!
Perfect example of selective reading, especially the part where no snot nosed kids have been telling accomplished aviators to apply at Jazz or Encore. In fact, I believe I said go slug it out in pickle lake. At least your job title would be what you thought it would.

It's about the bait and switch. They put up a FO job which clearly isn't an FO job, plain and simple.

And let's be clear, again, everyone has their their own path in this career, but as I feel I am an accomplished aviator I'd like to warn up and comers about these too good to be true job postings.

Chances are, they will have to go on the ramp somewhere, but at least they know that before they get on a plane to Yellowknife, telling all their friends they accepted a job as an FO on a DC3, only to be parked at a computer to flight watch.
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Re: DC-3 / C-46 Ramp Slave

Post by FishermanIvan » Sun Jul 22, 2018 9:07 am

Also, the whole 20 years after you start as an FO on a Q400 for Jazz, you're not still flying a Q400 unless you really, really want to. You move up, get promoted, and make WAY more money than I imagine you do at Buffalo, and you get vacation, GDOs and all that stuff as well.
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Re: DC-3 / C-46 Ramp Slave

Post by Zaibatsu » Sun Jul 22, 2018 11:57 am

shimmydampner wrote:
Sun Jul 22, 2018 12:52 am
Oh god. These topics are so nauseating. Especially the part where the snot nosed kids tell an accomplished aviator the way of the world while doing their best to diminish his career. It's hilarious to see the same mushy little cupcakes who would trip over their own undescended testicles for a $37k/yr right seat Q400 job, slag anyone who might be interested to fly a C46 or DC3.
Who’s diminishing who’s career? I think you’re reading things that aren’t there.

And if you think that $37k/yr in a Q400 in civilization is somehow worse than probably the same or less money to be a ramp slave and sometimes fly a DC-3 or C-46.

What exactly is there to feel proud about at such a job? That you are so lacking in self respect and the capacity for actual work, that you feel it's better to accept poverty wages to "fly" an aircraft that can fly itself rather than improve your hands and feet skills in an aircraft that demands it?
Are you aware of what Buffalo pays for this position? Or the cost of living in Yellowknife?

I’m guessing you don’t have any time on FMS/glass cockpit aircraft with that statement. Those are usually the only people who say “they fly themselves”.

To be clear, I don't work for Buffalo and never have, nor have I flown a C46 or DC3, although I wish I had. And, I can't say for sure, but I'll bet Buffalo pays equal or better wages than Jazz or Encore. Let me guess? Jazz or Encore will teach you all about how an FMS and autopilot works and Buffalo won't. Guaranteed they also won't teach you as much about the physical business of flying an airplane as Buffalo will.
You bet they pay more? If they do... it’s only because they won’t attract anyone paying less. That’s why they have “pilot” right in the job description, because nobody who just shelled out for a pilots licence is going to relocate to the Blade to drive a forklift.
How about everyone who is well down the path of their effeminate, underachieving airline careers, stop passing judgement on up-and-comers who might be interested in something other than the bland, mind-numbing path that is today's ordinary. After all, it doesn't affect you anyways, so why not the shut the fnck up!?
We’re not passing judgment like you are. We’re helping these up and comers avoid making a mistake when they could be looking at an upgrade on a Q in a year or two vs finally getting a full time FO spot at Buffalo, still a year or two away from their ATPL. A Q rating will take you anywhere in the world.. and that’s just the beginning of your progression. But boy, the guy who went to Buffalo will sure know how a pallet jack and a herc strap works! And they’ll have bragging rights over their future captain who started training at the same time but progressed further in his or her career.

Oh, and how many crashes has Jazz or Encore had? That’s right... combined it’s fewer than Buffalo. No fatalities either.
Watch out for the sea-walls, ya pnss!es!
On 28 August 2002, BFL928, a Douglas C-54E (C-GQIC), landed short of the runway at Diavik Airport. The right wing came off the aircraft, which travelled 1,000 ft (300 m) down the runway. The aircraft caught fire and was a write-off. The two crew escaped with minor injuries.
On 1 August 2003, Douglas C-54G C-GBSK touched down short of the runway at the Ulu mine strip. The landing gear collapsed and the wings separated from the fuselage. The wings then caught fire and the fuselage veered off the right side of the runway. The four crew were unhurt, but the aircraft was written off.
:smt040
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Re: DC-3 / C-46 Ramp Slave

Post by Diadem » Sun Jul 22, 2018 12:10 pm

I'm pretty sure this job ad is word-for-word the one they posted a few months ago for a rampie, but they added "Fly DC-3 and/or C-46 aircraft". I'm curious to know how a pilot can marshal in his/her own aircraft, or why it specifies that the pilot will provide weather briefings to him/herself.
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Re: DC-3 / C-46 Ramp Slave

Post by Aviatard » Sun Jul 22, 2018 3:24 pm

shimmydampner wrote:
Sun Jul 22, 2018 12:52 am
After all, it doesn't affect you anyways, so why not the shut the fnck up!? Watch out for the sea-walls, ya pnss!es!
Impressive number of insults in one post. Life was shit for you so it might as well be shit for everyone amirite?
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Re: DC-3 / C-46 Ramp Slave

Post by shimmydampner » Sun Jul 22, 2018 7:41 pm

Zaibatsu wrote:
Sun Jul 22, 2018 11:57 am
And if you think that $37k/yr in a Q400 in civilization is somehow worse than probably the same or less money to be a ramp slave and sometimes fly a DC-3 or C-46.
Yes. I do think that's worse, but that's just my opinion.
Zaibatsu wrote:
Sun Jul 22, 2018 11:57 am
We’re not passing judgment like you are. We’re helping these up and comers avoid making a mistake when they could be looking at an upgrade on a Q in a year or two vs finally getting a full time FO spot at Buffalo, still a year or two away from their ATPL. A Q rating will take you anywhere in the world.. and that’s just the beginning of your progression.
Oh god, I'm getting douche chills. Helping these up and comers? With the benefit of what, 5 years of your own experience to draw on? Do you even realize the level of ego in what you're saying? You are the arbiter of good career choices? You know what constitutes a mistake in strangers lives? Everyone should aspire to jump into the airline pipeline as soon as possible? You're looking at this strictly through your own lens, without allowing for any other possible points of view. You're assuming that you've got it all so figured out, that everyone should want what you've got. Thing is, there are plenty of reasons why a person might not share your views. If you were really trying to help out up and comers, you'd offer something constructive. But you didn't. Really you just wanted to be a smart ass and a dick and take an opportunity to shit on an operator and anyone who might be interested in that job, or line of work.
"Ramp slave, fixed it for you." @#$! off.
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C.W.E.
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Re: DC-3 / C-46 Ramp Slave

Post by C.W.E. » Sun Jul 22, 2018 7:47 pm

. You're assuming that you've got it all so figured out, that everyone should want what you've got.
Not everyone thinks flying for a company like say Jazz is a great job.

The only way I could work there would to get a lobotomy so the boring day after day same old trips would not drive me crazy.
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